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Author Topic: 5DIII will come  (Read 53620 times)

briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2011, 11:52:48 AM »
When the 5D3 comes out the 7D style AF will be the worst apart from the 1100D. I cant imaging Canon believing that the newest top semi pro still camera would sell when saddled with the worst AF.

The 7D's 19-pt AF will be worse than the 60D's 9-pt AF?  How do you figure that?

Time will tell.  Would you have predicted that they'd release a 1-series body where they took away the ability to AF with the center point at f/8?  I would not have guess that one, but they made an intentional and conscious decision to weaken the AF system of a new pro body relative to it's predecessors.  If they'll do that, a weak 5DIII AF should not come as a surprise.

Do you think that the current crop cameras will be around when the 5D3 is released? I dont think so

I think the F8 change was Canon pushing people onto faster lens. Removing F8 probably had the effect of improving the 5.6 only tracking

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2011, 11:52:48 AM »

brando72

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #91 on: November 22, 2011, 11:54:46 AM »
OK I have two 7D's. Their AF is better than the 5DII - but not that much better contrary to the word on the street. There may be exceptions like peripheral points but most people use the 2.8 point in the centre

Well, yes...on the 5DII I use the center AF point, because that's the only one worthy of being called an AF point.  The 7D's other 18 points all work just about as well as the center point.  But with a fast prime like the 85L, autofocus-recompose is not optimal, since it results in OOF shots - so, I'd really like to use a peripheral point for that.  Instead, it's Eg-S and MF.

Neuro,

Thanks for all the informative knowledge you provide. Regarding, using a 5dm2 to take a portrait of my daughter (hypothetical) Assuming 5dm2 and 85L 1.2 lens, why is using auto-focus (center point) and then recomposing not optimal? Why will the shots be OOF? Another words, if i lock focus on daughter's eye and then recompose shot, what is the reason it may produce an OOF shot? How do you correct this problem? Is this a function of the narrow dof at 1.2, the focusing system, etc. If you stop down the 85 1.2 1 or 2 stops, does this change the parameters? I'm new and just trying to learn.

Best.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #92 on: November 22, 2011, 12:15:31 PM »
Do you think that the current crop cameras will be around when the 5D3 is released? I dont think so

I think we'll see a 5DIII before we see a 7DII.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #93 on: November 22, 2011, 12:26:27 PM »
Regarding, using a 5dm2 to take a portrait of my daughter (hypothetical) Assuming 5dm2 and 85L 1.2 lens, why is using auto-focus (center point) and then recomposing not optimal? Why will the shots be OOF? Another words, if i lock focus on daughter's eye and then recompose shot, what is the reason it may produce an OOF shot? How do you correct this problem? Is this a function of the narrow dof at 1.2, the focusing system, etc. If you stop down the 85 1.2 1 or 2 stops, does this change the parameters? I'm new and just trying to learn.

Basically because when you recompose, the straight-line distance between the point on which you focused and the point at which the camera is ultimately aimed are different, so you end up focusing behind the intended focal plane.  If you stop down a bit, the DoF gets deeper and that will mask this type of error.  For a more detailed explanation of the issue, read this linked article
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briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #94 on: November 22, 2011, 12:38:46 PM »
Regarding, using a 5dm2 to take a portrait of my daughter (hypothetical) Assuming 5dm2 and 85L 1.2 lens, why is using auto-focus (center point) and then recomposing not optimal? Why will the shots be OOF? Another words, if i lock focus on daughter's eye and then recompose shot, what is the reason it may produce an OOF shot? How do you correct this problem? Is this a function of the narrow dof at 1.2, the focusing system, etc. If you stop down the 85 1.2 1 or 2 stops, does this change the parameters? I'm new and just trying to learn.

Basically because when you recompose, the straight-line distance between the point on which you focused and the point at which the camera is ultimately aimed are different, so you end up focusing behind the intended focal plane.  If you stop down a bit, the DoF gets deeper and that will mask this type of error.  For a more detailed explanation of the issue, read this linked article.

+1

That why the old school togs use manual focus - and why they are fine with Zeis lens


briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #95 on: November 22, 2011, 12:46:35 PM »
Do you think that the current crop cameras will be around when the 5D3 is released? I dont think so

I think we'll see a 5DIII before we see a 7DII.

I was thinking more of the replacement for the 60D and 600D having 7D style AF, perhaps fewer but all 2.8 AF points. This would match with the iFCL metering of the current bodies


handsomerob

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2011, 01:19:11 PM »
Do you think that the current crop cameras will be around when the 5D3 is released? I dont think so
I think we'll see a 5DIII before we see a 7DII.

+1

5DIII should normally be the next in line along with a DIGIC V Rebel (650D?).
Then probably 7DII, 70D, 700D in that order, all three using similar sensors, if not the exact same one.
Maybe still a chance 7DII will be APS-H? Who knows... Then 70D could be released before the 7DII.

IMO, they will develop a new AF system for the 5DIII (around 15 points, say, 11 of them being cross type) which would then be trickled down and modified slightly for the 70D and maybe the 700D.
Then they could use 7D's AF in the 5DIV, 80D, 800D. It will still be more than capable in 2-3 years.

Just thinking out loud ;)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 02:10:54 PM by handsomerob »

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2011, 01:19:11 PM »

traveller

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »

Heck, even 5DIII's sales would suffer because of it's increased price (highly advanced AF would obviously cost more). Why would Canon take such a risk?


Its increased price? What, like the D700 was significantly more expensive than the 5D MkII? Higher production cost and lower profit margins are more likely, as well as the fact that they'd risk 1D X sales. 

I'm not going to revisit old ground (I think that Neuro and I will have to agree to disagree for now), but I would predict that the 5D MkIII will have the 7D's 19pt AF system.  My reasoning is that it's inferior enough to the 1D X AF system, already developed (hence no R&D expenditure), and is used on the 7D; thus it would become Canon's new mid-market standard. 

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #98 on: November 22, 2011, 02:00:59 PM »
I was thinking more of the replacement for the 60D and 600D having 7D style AF, perhaps fewer but all 2.8 AF points. This would match with the iFCL metering of the current bodies

All f/2.8 points?  That would be a huge departure.  No Canon body except for the 1D X has more than one f/2.8-sensitive AF point (always the center one), and the 1D X has 5 of them (in a vertical row at the center).
[/quote] 

I'm not going to revisit old ground (I think that Neuro and I will have to agree to disagree for now), but I would predict that the 5D MkIII will have the 7D's 19pt AF system.  My reasoning is that it's inferior enough to the 1D X AF system, already developed (hence no R&D expenditure), and is used on the 7D; thus it would become Canon's new mid-market standard. 

I will admit that it's possible that the 5DIII will use the 7D-type AF, but you seem to be suggesting they'll re-use the actual AF sensor from the 7D, without compensating for the larger frame.  If they compensate for the larger frame, it means developing a new sensor.  If they don't, it means the 5DIII would have more AF points, and better ones, but the area coverage would be even less than that of the 5DII, as you can see in the attached image (5DII in blue, 7D in black).  Canon has expressed a willingness to take things away from new models, as discussed above with f/8 issue.  But the AF area coverage of the 5DII was already not a strong point.  When they released the 5DII, they touted the fact that the horizontal point spread was the same as the 1DsIII, conveniently ignoring the fact that the vertical spread was a full row shorter.  The 7D's AF sensor on the 5DII would mean the loss of a horizontal row, as well.
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te4o

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2011, 02:04:43 PM »
Regarding, using a 5dm2 to take a portrait of my daughter (hypothetical) Assuming 5dm2 and 85L 1.2 lens, why is using auto-focus (center point) and then recomposing not optimal? Why will the shots be OOF? Another words, if i lock focus on daughter's eye and then recompose shot, what is the reason it may produce an OOF shot? How do you correct this problem? Is this a function of the narrow dof at 1.2, the focusing system, etc. If you stop down the 85 1.2 1 or 2 stops, does this change the parameters? I'm new and just trying to learn.

Basically because when you recompose, the straight-line distance between the point on which you focused and the point at which the camera is ultimately aimed are different, so you end up focusing behind the intended focal plane.  If you stop down a bit, the DoF gets deeper and that will mask this type of error.  For a more detailed explanation of the issue, read this linked article.

+1

That why the old school togs use manual focus - and why they are fine with Zeis lens
I like old school and I like Zeiss glass especially on Ia 5D2 for this and the above reasons. Nevertheless what I'd do with your daughters portrait and an ultra thin DOF is point the centre AF at the eyes and keep the shutter going in spray and pray (that's why the new cam needs a little bit faster FPS). Then pick the one you like most and  best in focus and crop them - recompose after the shot...
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briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #100 on: November 22, 2011, 05:16:34 PM »
I was thinking more of the replacement for the 60D and 600D having 7D style AF, perhaps fewer but all 2.8 AF points. This would match with the iFCL metering of the current bodies

All f/2.8 points?  That would be a huge departure.  No Canon body except for the 1D X has more than one f/2.8-sensitive AF point (always the center one), and the 1D X has 5 of them (in a vertical row at the center).
 

Sorry - I meant to say the centre point plus 4 expansion points to make tracking more accurate. Personally I dont use the outside points very often



mrgazpacho

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2011, 06:20:44 PM »
the AF area coverage of the 5DII was already not a strong point. 

Given that the generally-agreed subject matter for the 5D tends to be slower-moving than the 7D, I can guess that Canon would be willing to make that tradeoff - as you said, they already have done that for the 1DX.

traveller

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2011, 06:43:47 PM »

I will admit that it's possible that the 5DIII will use the 7D-type AF, but you seem to be suggesting they'll re-use the actual AF sensor from the 7D, without compensating for the larger frame.  If they compensate for the larger frame, it means developing a new sensor.  If they don't, it means the 5DIII would have more AF points, and better ones, but the area coverage would be even less than that of the 5DII, as you can see in the attached image (5DII in blue, 7D in black).  Canon has expressed a willingness to take things away from new models, as discussed above with f/8 issue.  But the AF area coverage of the 5DII was already not a strong point.  When they released the 5DII, they touted the fact that the horizontal point spread was the same as the 1DsIII, conveniently ignoring the fact that the vertical spread was a full row shorter.  The 7D's AF sensor on the 5DII would mean the loss of a horizontal row, as well.


I was aware of the implications of using the 7D AF system in a future 5D, but I've never seen it drawn as well as you have done, so bravo.  I don't think that Canon would bother to design a new full frame version with a greater spread (although I hope I'm wrong).  AF point frame coverage vies with the lack of cross type sensors as the reason for the inadequacy of the 5D's AF system, even for people who don't shoot action.  You've previously mentioned the problem with the focus and recompose method of focusing at large apertures.  But marketing loves numbers and 19 is better than 9... I wouldn't like to make statements about the 1D X's AF system before it's been released or without any information about the design decisions made.  I personally favour the trade off explaination for the lack of any f/8 capable AF points.  Canon would have to be pretty confident to drop a good marketing differentiator just to try and sell people longer lenses; it's a hazardous enough move asking their customers to change formats without adding further risks to acceptance.  Having said that, many companies have made stupid decisions like this in the past!  ;D

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2011, 06:43:47 PM »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2011, 02:53:35 AM »
I think it's fair to guess that the f/5.6 AF limit of the 1D X was not an intentional crippling, but rather was done to ensure the AF was working at its best.  Basically, they are trying to wean 1D series photographers off cheap lenses...

To be sure there's an engineering angle in this, but (as others have found and as I've stated) there is every reason to believe that the amount of light hitting the AF sensor, be it slightly more or slightly less, will correspondingly help or hinder the AF process.  The sheer density of the new 1D X AF sensor might have something to do with this, as well (actually that was my first thought, in typing this up).

I don't think Canon would be so bold as to tell users of the lower-end cameras to give up their lenses - but they shouldn't need to, since with the 1D X the f/5.6 limit is apparently becoming standard.  That signals no change for sub-1D series bodies, not evidence (to me) of a willingness to cripple them.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2011, 10:10:57 AM »
Basically, they are trying to wean 1D series photographers off cheap lenses...

Seriously?  Yes, Canon definitely wants to wean people off of those cheap lenses.   Wildlife photographers using the 500mm f/4L IS with a 2x TC should ditch that cheap piece of crap and buy themselves an EF 1200mm f/5.6L lenses...except that Canon discontinued those.  Why did Canon publish the MTF curves for the 500mm and 600mm f/4 MkII superteles (are they 'cheap') with the 2X III extender for 1000mm and 1200mm f/8 lenses, then eliminate the ability of the pro line to AF with that combination.
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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2011, 10:10:57 AM »