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Author Topic: 5DIII will come  (Read 53636 times)

Meh

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #105 on: November 23, 2011, 10:47:11 AM »
Basically, they are trying to wean 1D series photographers off cheap lenses...

Seriously?  Yes, Canon definitely wants to wean people off of those cheap lenses.   Wildlife photographers using the 500mm f/4L IS with a 2x TC should ditch that cheap piece of crap and buy themselves an EF 1200mm f/5.6L lenses...except that Canon discontinued those.  Why did Canon publish the MTF curves for the 500mm and 600mm f/4 MkII superteles (are they 'cheap') with the 2X III extender for 1000mm and 1200mm f/8 lenses, then eliminate the ability of the pro line to AF with that combination.

Now Neuro, might your sarcasm be a little quick out of the gate on this one?  While I also think that there may be technical reasons for the change (e.g. maybe they somehow achieved better focus performance/speed at f/2.8 by limiting the sensitivity to f/5.6 instead of f/8) marketing could also come into it.

Allow me to rephrase Edwin's comment to be less 'controversial' sounding;   by limiting the focus sensitivity to f/5.6 you can no longer, for example, carry a 300mm f/2.8 and a 2X TC to get 600mm so you have to buy a second lens such as a 600mm f/4 or a 500mm f/4 and use a 1.4X TC.  According to Canon and the reviews, the 300mm and 400mm f/2.8 Mark II and the Mark III tele-converters deliver much improved IQ which reduces the need to invest in 600mm and 800mm lenses for the better IQ... yes it's still better but the gap is narrowed.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 11:53:41 AM by Meh »

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #105 on: November 23, 2011, 10:47:11 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #106 on: November 23, 2011, 02:37:00 PM »
Now Neuro, might your sarcasm be a little quick out of the gate on this one?  While I also think that there may be technical reasons for the change (e.g. maybe they somehow achieved better focus performance/speed at f/2.8 by limiting the sensitivity to f/5.6 instead of f/8) marketing could also come into it.

Allow me to rephrase Edwin's comment to be less 'controversial' sounding;   by limiting the focus sensitivity to f/5.6 you can no longer, for example, carry a 300mm f/2.8 and a 2X TC to get 600mm so you have to buy a second lens such as a 600mm f/4 or a 500mm f/4 and use a 1.4X TC.  According to Canon and the reviews, the 300mm and 400mm f/2.8 Mark II and the Mark III tele-converters deliver much improved IQ which reduces the need to invest in 600mm and 800mm lenses for the better IQ... yes it's still better but the gap is narrowed.

Not particularly.  I do think it's possible, even likely (and I mentioned before) that there are technical reasons for dropping the f/8 capability.

BTW, an f/2.8 lens with a 2x TC is f/5.6.

Point is, the problem isn't cheap lenses.  Well, in part maybe it is, if you consider a 300mm f/4L IS to be cheap.  That lens with a 2x TC on a 1D-series is a popular birding combo, as you have AF and can hike up mountains because it's light.  But the real problem is the combos for which there is no f/5.6 possibility (barring the 1200/5.6 as not a reasonable solution for many reasons).  For example, 800/5.6 + 1.4x TC, 500mm + 2x TC.
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Meh

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2011, 02:48:53 PM »
Now Neuro, might your sarcasm be a little quick out of the gate on this one?  While I also think that there may be technical reasons for the change (e.g. maybe they somehow achieved better focus performance/speed at f/2.8 by limiting the sensitivity to f/5.6 instead of f/8) marketing could also come into it.

Allow me to rephrase Edwin's comment to be less 'controversial' sounding;   by limiting the focus sensitivity to f/5.6 you can no longer, for example, carry a 300mm f/2.8 and a 2X TC to get 600mm so you have to buy a second lens such as a 600mm f/4 or a 500mm f/4 and use a 1.4X TC.  According to Canon and the reviews, the 300mm and 400mm f/2.8 Mark II and the Mark III tele-converters deliver much improved IQ which reduces the need to invest in 600mm and 800mm lenses for the better IQ... yes it's still better but the gap is narrowed.

Not particularly.  I do think it's possible, even likely (and I mentioned before) that there are technical reasons for dropping the f/8 capability.

BTW, an f/2.8 lens with a 2x TC is f/5.6.

Point is, the problem isn't cheap lenses.  Well, in part maybe it is, if you consider a 300mm f/4L IS to be cheap.  That lens with a 2x TC on a 1D-series is a popular birding combo, as you have AF and can hike up mountains because it's light.  But the real problem is the combos for which there is no f/5.6 possibility (barring the 1200/5.6 as not a reasonable solution for many reasons).  For example, 800/5.6 + 1.4x TC, 500mm + 2x TC.

Yes, sorry about the incorrect example.  Should have used the 300mm f/4 with the 2X TC that would now have to be replaced with a longer, faster, or second lens to get 600mm on the 1DX.

You're right, the issue is not "cheap" lenses which was the "controversial" part of Edwin's comment I was attempting to rephrase into a more palatable example.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 02:50:35 PM by Meh »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2011, 04:33:59 PM »
Basically, they are trying to wean 1D series photographers off cheap lenses...

Seriously?  Yes, Canon definitely wants to wean people off of those cheap lenses.   Wildlife photographers using the 500mm f/4L IS with a 2x TC should ditch that cheap piece of crap and buy themselves an EF 1200mm f/5.6L lenses...except that Canon discontinued those.  Why did Canon publish the MTF curves for the 500mm and 600mm f/4 MkII superteles (are they 'cheap') with the 2X III extender for 1000mm and 1200mm f/8 lenses, then eliminate the ability of the pro line to AF with that combination.
I'm not voicing my support for their decision.  I'm describing it as mainly business-driven, with perhaps the possibility of an engineering angle that is just plausible enough to give them cover.  Of course, they haven't really said enough to convince people there is a legitimate engineering reason (though I suspect I know what it is, as I said earlier) and so we're left to speculate and complain in a vacuum...as usual!

I suppose I could understand how Canon pride (and, more importantly, trying to repair or reinforce a reputation for reliable AF) would disallow having a somewhat underperforming AF system at f/8 (compared to f/5.6 and wider), while at the same time tweaking their newer TCs to reduce AF speed to ensure accuracy.  Actually, that seems consistent for me:  Even if you have to buy a new lens, at least you shouldn't be able to complain about AF misses (if people do have trouble in this area Canon will most certainly catch hell for it).

The upshot of all this, ironically, is to put me even and other shooters (especially wildlife / sports combo shooters) more firmly in the camp of the Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8, which is priced and performs just about perfectly to fill the niche opened by crippling the AF system.  It doesn't do anything to help the 500mm + 2X TC user situation, though.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 04:42:04 PM by Edwin Herdman »

briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #109 on: November 23, 2011, 06:12:59 PM »

The upshot of all this, ironically, is to put me even and other shooters (especially wildlife / sports combo shooters) more firmly in the camp of the Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8, which is priced and performs just about perfectly to fill the niche opened by crippling the AF system.  It doesn't do anything to help the 500mm + 2X TC user situation, though.

It doesn't help when you also lose the 1.3 crop to move to ff either.

wickidwombat

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2011, 07:51:18 PM »
the 5d3 HAS to have a better AF It is not going to be competing with the 1DX its main oponent is going to be the D800 delayed or not.

at 36MP which will no doubt be outstanding quality no matter we try to consol ourselves as canon users I am sure it will perform well at high iso and low light. It WILL have a great AF system hell all recent Nikons AF kills canon AF except for the 1 series which are probably equivalent. With the D800 rumoured to be at a $4000 to $5000 price point I fully expect the new 5D to come in here and be a competitor. I think it's wishfull thinking of people to expect it to maintain its current price point. The most sensible business decision for canon IMO is to take take the AF from the 1DS3 and stick it straight onto whatever sensor they come up with for the 5D. 5D users really dont give a damn about FPS it could have 2 or 3 FPS for all they care (I'm guessing 90+%).
Alot of people want pro build and functions in a body that doesnt have an integrated grip like the 1D series, They are prepared to pay for it. There are 2 destinct markets that canon are at risk of alienating if they dont deliver competative products.

The High MP low FPS high quality but still want a decent focus system to shoot portrait and landscape

and then the Lower MP crop sensor (keeping the 1.3 would make alot of people happy i think especially if it keeps the f8 center focus point) High Iso Performing Higher FPS for sports /wildlife

the 1DX is trying to be the jack of all trades and it might work. I think a 1Dx and a 1D mk4 would make a nice combo but I'm a bit over carrying the bulky 1D bodies and I really would like to see pro level non integrated grips that address the above criteria ala 5D3 and 7D2 or whatever. I prefer to have 2 cameras than to change lenses too much.

Currently my combo of 5D2 and 1D3 works but I want to eventually replace the 1D3 with something that doesnt have the integrated grip and uses the same battery system as the 5D2 or 5D3. I dont mind paying for quality and dont expect canon to bring all this in at unrealistic price points but they have to be competative other wise people will jump platform if their competition that use Nikon manage to consistently produce better results.

I dont know but canon seem to be losing ground to Nikon
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 07:57:11 PM by wickidwombat »
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Isaac

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2011, 08:26:06 AM »
We've said before that the 5D3 may have about a 10-12% price increase. I highly doubt Canon are going to jump the price as you hinted in your previous post. Here's a table of what Canon has done in the past (lens included)

Canon 5D  - $3499
Canon 5D2- $3299
Canon 5D3- $3650 (roughly 10% increase)

I doubt Canon are going to jump the price by 25-40% to around $4400! They simply would be losing a large part of a market that they have built up so well. I think people in that market segment could handle around 10-12% increase in price.

You also said that Canon are losing ground to Nikon. How is that so? The facts show the exact opposite. Canon have increased their market share to over 40% while Nikon's has been found to be around 30%.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 08:32:04 AM by Isaac »

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2011, 08:26:06 AM »

Fab_Angilletta

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #112 on: November 24, 2011, 03:56:42 PM »

The upshot of all this, ironically, is to put me even and other shooters (especially wildlife / sports combo shooters) more firmly in the camp of the Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8, which is priced and performs just about perfectly to fill the niche opened by crippling the AF system.  It doesn't do anything to help the 500mm + 2X TC user situation, though.

It doesn't help when you also lose the 1.3 crop to move to ff either.

Nikon sports shooters are using FF for a couple of years now, get over it!

briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #113 on: November 24, 2011, 06:03:54 PM »

The upshot of all this, ironically, is to put me even and other shooters (especially wildlife / sports combo shooters) more firmly in the camp of the Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8, which is priced and performs just about perfectly to fill the niche opened by crippling the AF system.  It doesn't do anything to help the 500mm + 2X TC user situation, though.

It doesn't help when you also lose the 1.3 crop to move to ff either.

Nikon sports shooters are using FF for a couple of years now, get over it!

So what if Nikon moved to ff!- do Canon have to mimic Nikon. If anything the 1.3 crop gave Canon an advantage.

handsomerob

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #114 on: November 24, 2011, 06:17:06 PM »
It doesn't help when you also lose the 1.3 crop to move to ff either.

Nikon sports shooters are using FF for a couple of years now, get over it!

So what if Nikon moved to ff!- do Canon have to mimic Nikon. If anything the 1.3 crop gave Canon an advantage.

Agreed. I find reach important for sports shooting.

But I think Canon had to move to FF at some point, to compete with Nikon's (D3s) better low-light performance.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2011, 01:39:43 AM »
We've said before that the 5D3 may have about a 10-12% price increase. I highly doubt Canon are going to jump the price as you hinted in your previous post. Here's a table of what Canon has done in the past (lens included)

Canon 5D  - $3499
Canon 5D2- $3299
Canon 5D3- $3650 (roughly 10% increase)


Were those the Canadian prices?
Those are nothing like in the US. The 5D2 cost both outright less and less comparatively to the 5D.
$2699 for 5D2 in the US and I think it was $3000 or $3500 for 5D in US.

Isaac

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2011, 03:53:03 AM »
We've said before that the 5D3 may have about a 10-12% price increase. I highly doubt Canon are going to jump the price as you hinted in your previous post. Here's a table of what Canon has done in the past (lens included)

Canon 5D  - $3499
Canon 5D2- $3299
Canon 5D3- $3650 (roughly 10% increase)


Were those the Canadian prices?
Those are nothing like in the US. The 5D2 cost both outright less and less comparatively to the 5D.
$2699 for 5D2 in the US and I think it was $3000 or $3500 for 5D in US.

If you look in the message I wrote you will see that I said "lens included". Eg. kit price

CanonFanNum1

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #117 on: March 07, 2012, 10:38:59 PM »
Hooray for better AF!!

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #117 on: March 07, 2012, 10:38:59 PM »