September 01, 2014, 04:33:06 AM

Author Topic: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800  (Read 34764 times)

atkinsr

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Even on the insanely expensive 70" 4K tvs, it's still only 4k. That leaves print: I'm just curious what print houses will print at these resolutions? Even the highly regarded mpixpro lab made me send them an 8 bit sRGB JPG for my 24x36 print, and much to my surprise, at 24MP, it turned out just fine. Could it have looked better? Sure, but after playing around a LOT with the images (including re-shooting the scene zoomed in and stitching images to get a much higher effective pixel count), I'm convinced that this is due to the JPG requirement, not pixel count.

People are going to buy what they want, and I'm not going to try to stop them. I just don't understand the need to go any higher. If you are consistently cropping for added zoom, you have the wrong lens or are standing in the wrong place.

If you shoot for large format prints, you have the wrong camera, you should be shooting medium format.

I keep hearing people talk about needing high frame rates (makes sense) and high MP (why?) for sports. Even using the lossless compression, those are roughly 50MB files.
50MB x 10FPS = 500MB/s. Good luck finding a card to keep up with that. You'd need a 1-2GB insanely fast buffer in the camera just to be able to shoot for 2 seconds.

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David Hull

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I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June.  Why am I not jumping ship?  I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!
The thing I wonder about your post and others like it is - how many people "need" 36+ MP?  Sure, it's always nice to have more than you need, but unless you have the very best lenses - Canon Mk II big whites, Zeiss Otus 55 & Zeiss 135 f/2, etc., there will be little increase in actual resolution.  It would help a lot with cropping and would equalize the FF vs. crop war for wildlife...but again, only with the very best lenses and technique.  I've printed many large prints at 40x60 or larger at 300dpi (that's around a 3x enlargement for 5DII files) and found little to complain about.  Most people share photos at 1600x1200 or less online and rarely, if ever, print anything over 8x12"...but these are the people who often scream the loudest over their inadequate megapixel bodies!

While we wait for more MP, I'll keep shooting what I've got and won't lose any sleep over my 18 and 22 MP bodies 8)

They "need" it because Nikon has it and Canon doesn't.

mackguyver

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Even the highly regarded mpixpro lab made me send them an 8 bit sRGB JPG for my 24x36 print, and much to my surprise, at 24MP, it turned out just fine.
Are you using the latest ROES version?  I'm not sure about MPix, but the ROES that Bay Labs and others are now using support TIFF uploads and most labs that use ROES allow you to use AdobeRGB.
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sdsr

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in addition to your Canon does not require any kind of lens selling or trading in for new set of crappy Nikon lenses.  trust me , Nikon just go down and down from now on since Sony just announced using its best sensor for only its own camera
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Could you explain it a bit, how can Sony cameras use Canon lenses better than Nikon?
[/quote]

If you're asking whether Canon lenses work better on Sony A7/A7r bodies than Nikon lenses do, the latest metabones EF-Nex/e-mount adapter provides aperture control for most/many (all?) EF lenses and (if you're not in a hurry) AF for some.  I don't think there's a Nikon-Nex equivalent yet.  Provided you don't mind manual focusing and manual aperture control, manual Nikon lenses (you need the aperture ring) work just fine on the Sonys (as do a vast range of manual lenses - that's part of the appeal of mirrorless cameras).  This has nothing in particular to do with FF, by the way - the metabones EF adapter works just the same on Sony's APS-C mirrorless bodies.

If you're asking whether Canon lenses work better on Sony mirrorless cameras than they do on Nikon cameras, I don't think it's physically possible to attach an EF Canon lens to a Nikon body; so the question doesn't really arise. (Or am I wrong about this?) 

For whatever it's worth, in my experience Canon lenses work superbly on Sony mirrorless bodies - leaving aside AF issues (accuracy is dead-on; speed, on the other hand...).  And that's true not just of L lenses but even such lowly old-timers as the 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.8.  When I get caught up with processing photos I'll probably post a few on this forum - though by now that point has been made by others elsewhere.

sdsr

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If you are consistently cropping for added zoom, you have the wrong lens or are standing in the wrong place.


Perhaps.  But swap "sometimes" for "consistently" and bear in mind that a small mirrorless FF camera + Zeiss/Sony 35mm or 55mm (or one of the smaller Canon - or anyone else's for that matter - primes) weighs little and is really easy to carry around all day; and the higher the resolution the easier it is to forego carrying around a longer lens as well.   

sdsr

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Or they decided to do the hard thing (refreshing a large portion of their lens lineup) before doing the relatively easy thing (increasing pixel density in a single body). As has been noted numerous times, both the optics and the electronics net the effective system resolution, hence the 5D3 + lenses resolving better on average than the D800 + lenses.


Sure; but didn't Roger Cicala at lensrentals show that while the Canon 24-70 2.8 L II is a higher-resolution lens than the Tamron equivalent, the Tamron on a Nikon D800 outresolves the Canon on a 5DIII?  Reports suggest that the Canon performs awfully well on a Sony A7r (I wonder if anyone has done a similar comparison with both lenses on an A7/A7r).

It may well be that most people don't "need" more resolution, and that many of those who think they want it would be disappointed when they got it, but would anyone here complain if Canon released a relatively affordable (i.e. comparable to Sony) FF camera with higher resolution and better low ISO performance (especially if it also had at least as good high ISO performance as the 6D/1Dx)?  I wouldn't - especially if it were also mirrorless, so we could avoid the tiresome back/front-focus problems that seem to affect so many lenses. 

Halfrack

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Everyone itching to spend money get in line for the Pentax 645z, as it's 50mp is even more detail....

Otherwise, go take a photo and have fun.
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3kramd5

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Or they decided to do the hard thing (refreshing a large portion of their lens lineup) before doing the relatively easy thing (increasing pixel density in a single body). As has been noted numerous times, both the optics and the electronics net the effective system resolution, hence the 5D3 + lenses resolving better on average than the D800 + lenses.


Sure; but didn't Roger Cicala at lensrentals show that while the Canon 24-70 2.8 L II is a higher-resolution lens than the Tamron equivalent, the Tamron on a Nikon D800 outresolves the Canon on a 5DIII?

I don't know, but I don't doubt it. My point was that if and when canon decides to turn out a higher resolution sensor, their lens lineup will be ready.
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Harry Muff

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When you do heavy retouching of 10 hours or more, nice big images are very nice to have. A medium format is out of the question for most due to the silly prices, so it's a 5D3, an 800E.




Of course, the tide is turning somewhat with MF but, unless the Pentax 645z delivers, or the rumoured Fuji MF camera hits the right notes, then it'll have to be the 800E to get those big, juicy files to work on.




I use a 5D3 and love it, but it would be nice if the images had a good few more MPs to play with.


Some cameras… With Canon written on them. Oh, and some lenses… Also with Canon written on them. Oh, and a shiny camera with Fuji written on it too...

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LightandMotion

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I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June.  Why am I not jumping ship?  I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

if you want a high resolution FF , get the A7R , it is so simple and easy.  the A7R has better sensor, better AF for stills, better video and it is much more portable.   unless you need SLR shaped boy with dated mirror based AF, there is no contest but the A7R wins, and adding the Sony in addition to your Canon does not require any kind of lens selling or trading in for new set of crappy Nikon lenses.  trust me , Nikon just go down and down from now on since Sony just announced using its best sensor for only its own cameras for certain period of time(6 months or so) this means Nikon will not be able to have any proper access to Sony's latest chips for at least 6 months after the announcement new chips.   the D800E replacement will use the Sony A7R sensor and the new Sony A99Mk2 will get better improved version of it.. and in many markets Nikon is already no3 in camera sells, in HK , Australia , Brazil , China and South Korea Sony is already no1 or no2....the fall of Nikon is coming very soon.


This is exactly what I have done for landscapes. My Canon EF glass on the A7R. The dynamic range is better than my 1dx. Hopeless for sports and wildlife, but no one wants 36MP for that.
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mackguyver

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This is exactly what I have done for landscapes. My Canon EF glass on the A7R. The dynamic range is better than my 1dx. Hopeless for sports and wildlife, but no one wants 36MP for that.
The samples posted here and elsewhere of the A7R with 24-70II and TS-E lenses are very impressive.  Also, I wouldn't mind 36MP for wildlife as I have made very large prints of some of my bird portraits in the past :)
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ajfotofilmagem

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I'm not opposed to Canon launching a 40 megapixel camera, but it is not the right camera for my use. I just hope that in the future still exist models available with 18 or 20 megapixel, not just the top line 1DX.

LetTheRightLensIn

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I believe the lack of a high MP camera in Canon's lineup reflects still-developing technology rather than lack of interest in the market.

Or they decided to do the hard thing (refreshing a large portion of their lens lineup) before doing the relatively easy thing (increasing pixel density in a single body). As has been noted numerous times, both the optics and the electronics net the effective system resolution, hence the 5D3 + lenses resolving better on average than the D800 + lenses.

Either way, people would be clamoring. I kinda suspect that if they had instead just crapped out a full frame camera with 7D-sized pixels and people only saw marginal IQ gains (albeit with large, unwieldy files) due to the unavailability of sufficiently good glass, the clamoring would be louder. But you never know.

Don't forget that DxO usually tests lenses at near wide open!
Who says you can't use a sharp lens stopped down for landscapes or a nice sharp tele for wildlife and get a lot of advantage? The 7D has higher density than the D800 and people seem to get plenty of good use out of it for wildlife.

Also there is the issue of low ISO DR, it's not just MP. And bringing that is NOT necessarily easier than making new lenses at all.

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LetTheRightLensIn

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Nobody needs 36 mp! At most, we post at 1000x700.  So, around 0.5 to 1 mp should be enough for most.

I see a lot of people starting to post at 1600 across now.

And now UHD/4k monitors are out!
8MP on screen at once. Believe me 8MP image on those screens looks WAY better than expanding a 1MP!

And don't forget cropping for wildlife (or sports). You can always use more reach for wildlife.

LetTheRightLensIn

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I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June.  Why am I not jumping ship?  I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

Why does Nikon need to upgrade the D800e if Canon has nothing to compete with it?
Maybe it’s not the big seller the “I want more megapixel crowd” think it is.
The funny thing is that a lot of Nikon users are asking for a true successor to the D700 (less megapixels, more fps, smaller files).

Yes, I bought a D800, and files that open to  125 - 150 MB are no fun to edit.  Its hard to imagine what editing a 200 - 250 MB file would be like.
 
 
The files open so large due to the huge amount of noise in any image over about ISO 800.  NEF is a compressed file, but they are uncompressed in order to edit them.  I tried editing 1500 shots that I took at high ISO over a couple of nights.  I had to use a ton of NR on them, and that took minutes per image to run.
 
I sold the D800 and bought a 5D MK III, it is much better for high ISO photography.  The D800 is great at ISO 200, assuming that you buy lenses that can resolve the high MP, and that you use a tripod or very fast shutter speed.  Its difficult to actually get the high resolution possible, many users do not and giv up.


125-150MB files from a D800???
I don't see others saying that the D800 is bad at high iso, at least not unless you are getting into crazy 12,800+. Both viewed at 100% it shows a bit more noise, but viewed to the same scale it has similar SNR and tighter 'grain', although it does start getting worse DR once you get to the very high ISOs and a scene at ISO6400+ might start looking worse if it has extensive areas near black.


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