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Author Topic: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800  (Read 117747 times)

Sella174

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #450 on: June 12, 2014, 03:26:25 AM »
If Sella wanted to compare tech he should have said so, but he used the term "full frame;" by definition, that is a sensor with dimensions equal to a frame of 35mm film.  That is the defining characteristic of "full-frame."

It is in truth neuroanatomist who keeps insisting that a sensor of "full-frame" size has better "characteristics" than an equal sensor of "crop-frame" size, e.g.

You're suggesting that if I crop an APS-C FoV from a shot with my 1D X, that the IQ of the resulting 7 MP image will be the same as the IQ an uncropped image (assuming I adjusted the framing with a zoom lens or changing the distance).  Sorry, that's simply not true.   

 ???
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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #450 on: June 12, 2014, 03:26:25 AM »

Sella174

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #451 on: June 12, 2014, 03:34:20 AM »
...

Thanks for that lengthy reply. I now see where the problem lies: we are comparing different things. Oh, and thanks also for attributing statements which I never made to me.  ;)
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #452 on: June 12, 2014, 07:30:46 AM »
Just because a sensor is larger doesn't mean it has less noise and indeed, if you were to take two sensors that used pixels of the same design then both sensors would have equal noise.
But is that not what I've been saying all this time?

Yes, you've been saying that...and you're wrong.  Using a statement by dilbert to support your own viewpoint isn't wise – his grasp of facts is tenuous at best (for example, he once posted a picture of what he thought was a camera, but was actually a lens).  Actually, you two seem to have some things in common...poor understanding of technology and business principles and refusal to admit mistakes, to name a few.


It is in truth neuroanatomist who keeps insisting that a sensor of "full-frame" size has better "characteristics" than an equal sensor of "crop-frame" size, e.g.

Who's incorrectly attributing statements now?  ::)

A sensor of full frame size does produce better image quality than an APS-C sensor, given pixels of the same design, for the reasons described in my detailed explanation above (more gain must be applied to the smaller sensor).

Comparing the same sized patch of area on two different sized sensors with identical pixel design is completely pointless.
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Orangutan

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #453 on: June 12, 2014, 08:50:56 AM »
So what's your intention?  Are you comparing sensor tech or actual cameras with FF and APS-C sensors?

I am comparing sensor technology, whilst neuroanatomist responds by comparing actual camera sensors. Very confusing.

No, you said this:

Given a "full-frame" sensor and a "crop-frame" sensor, made of the same "sensor technology", i.e. same size photosites, same A/D converter, same everything except area.

The statement is that a "full-frame" sensor gathers more total light than a "crop-frame" sensor.

Then you went on to discuss the center area of the FF, so I corrected you.

You are very sloppy and imprecise in your use of language.  Remember, on the interwebs non-verbal cues are not readily available so you need to be careful with your words.

Sporgon

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #454 on: June 12, 2014, 04:07:55 PM »
The answer lies in what ISO is...and isn't.  Many people have a poor understanding of ISO, incorrectly assuming that a given ISO setting means a fixed amount of gain applied to the signal.  ISO is a standard (that's the 'S' in ISO, ISO 12232 is the relevant standard in this case), and that standard effectively means that for a given exposure setting in terms of aperture and shutter speed, the resulting image will have a defined brightness.  How does an image taken at f/2, 1/100 s, ISO 200 on a PowerShot S100 have the same brightness as an image at f/2, 1/100 s, ISO 200 on a FF sensor, even though the FF sensor is over 20 times larger?  More amplification (gain) must be applied to the lower total signal from the smaller sensor. More amplification means more noise.  Obviously, the same is true for m4/3 and APS-C relative to FF, to a progressively lesser degree.  Likewise, a medium format sensor needs less amplification than a FF sensor to achieve the necessary brightness for a given ISO according to the standard, and therefore has less noise than FF.

Interesting. So how did ISO work with film ? Was 50 ISO 120 roll film a different emulsion to 50 ISO 35mm ? How did 645 framing on 120 expose the same as 6x7 or even 6x9 ?

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #455 on: June 12, 2014, 04:40:31 PM »
The answer lies in what ISO is...and isn't.  Many people have a poor understanding of ISO, incorrectly assuming that a given ISO setting means a fixed amount of gain applied to the signal.  ISO is a standard (that's the 'S' in ISO, ISO 12232 is the relevant standard in this case), and that standard effectively means that for a given exposure setting in terms of aperture and shutter speed, the resulting image will have a defined brightness.  How does an image taken at f/2, 1/100 s, ISO 200 on a PowerShot S100 have the same brightness as an image at f/2, 1/100 s, ISO 200 on a FF sensor, even though the FF sensor is over 20 times larger?  More amplification (gain) must be applied to the lower total signal from the smaller sensor. More amplification means more noise.  Obviously, the same is true for m4/3 and APS-C relative to FF, to a progressively lesser degree.  Likewise, a medium format sensor needs less amplification than a FF sensor to achieve the necessary brightness for a given ISO according to the standard, and therefore has less noise than FF.

Interesting. So how did ISO work with film ? Was 50 ISO 120 roll film a different emulsion to 50 ISO 35mm ? How did 645 framing on 120 expose the same as 6x7 or even 6x9 ?
I believe it was the same emulsion for any size film but the difference was the 35mm film was more grainy than MF because it was enlarged much much more.

100

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #456 on: June 12, 2014, 05:08:56 PM »
Just because a sensor is larger doesn't mean it has less noise and indeed, if you were to take two sensors that used pixels of the same design then both sensors would have equal noise.

If you want to print lets say a 10" by 15" picture of a small sensor you have to enlarge it more. The difference is 1.6*1.6 = 2.56x (Canon APS-C versus FF). What kind of effect do you think that has on the visibility of noise?

What you will see won't be noise but the bi-cubic or whatever method used to invent pixels for the printer to print.

I’m not talking about inventing and adding more pixels to a picture.
Just print the existing pixels of both sensors (FF and APS-C) to the same size photograph.

If both cameras have the same amount of pixels than the pixels of the FF camera are larger. Because of that they gather more light per pixel which leads to less noise in the end result.

If both cameras have the same size pixels, than the noise per pixel will be exactly the same, but the APS-C camera will have 2.56 times less pixels, so all pixels (including the noisy ones) have to be enlarged 2.56 times more to get to the same size photograph. You will end up with less resolution and the noise will be more visible. 

In the end the FF sensor will give you a cleaner (less noisy) picture than APS-C when printed at the same size (or looked at on the same size screen).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 05:17:03 PM by 100 »

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #456 on: June 12, 2014, 05:08:56 PM »

traingineer

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #457 on: June 12, 2014, 06:45:24 PM »
Honestly Sella, are you trying to be the representative of the niche of the niche of the niche group? The group of Canon users who, just will not agree to anything or anyone and want the most bizarre products to be produced by Canon, and only make up 0.00............1% of Canon users?

Read what I wrote, not what others told you that I wrote. Then learn to think for yourself, instead of having others think for you.

Finished? Now go look up the profit Canon's photographic division made last year and calculate what is 1% (the figure you so randomly plucked from others' posts) of that amount. That is the amount of additional money Canon could have made on each and every product made specially for us "niche of a niche of a niche 1% group of Canon users". Instead, we're spending that amount as a baseline elsewhere.

Think for yourself. Am I right or am I wrong?

I have been reading what you wrote throughout this entire thread, and I didn't say 1%, I decided to go with 0.000001% and my answer is around 1500-3000$. Which I don't think would really benefit Canon at all.

ajperk

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #458 on: June 12, 2014, 06:50:51 PM »
Honestly Sella, are you trying to be the representative of the niche of the niche of the niche group? The group of Canon users who, just will not agree to anything or anyone and want the most bizarre products to be produced by Canon, and only make up 0.00............1% of Canon users?

Read what I wrote, not what others told you that I wrote. Then learn to think for yourself, instead of having others think for you.


Finished? Now go look up the profit Canon's photographic division made last year and calculate what is 1% (the figure you so randomly plucked from others' posts) of that amount. That is the amount of additional money Canon could have made on each and every product made specially for us "niche of a niche of a niche 1% group of Canon users". Instead, we're spending that amount as a baseline elsewhere.

Think for yourself. Am I right or am I wrong?

I have been reading what you wrote throughout this entire thread, and I didn't say 1%, I decided to go with 0.000001% and my answer is around 1500-3000$. Which I don't think would really benefit Canon at all.

I suppose you have to take that $1500 to $3000 and subtract the costs of R&D, manufacturing, marketing, and surely plenty of other costs I'm not thinking about at the moment. Looks pretty bleak pretty quickly.
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traingineer

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #459 on: June 12, 2014, 06:54:58 PM »
Honestly Sella, are you trying to be the representative of the niche of the niche of the niche group? The group of Canon users who, just will not agree to anything or anyone and want the most bizarre products to be produced by Canon, and only make up 0.00............1% of Canon users?

Read what I wrote, not what others told you that I wrote. Then learn to think for yourself, instead of having others think for you.


Finished? Now go look up the profit Canon's photographic division made last year and calculate what is 1% (the figure you so randomly plucked from others' posts) of that amount. That is the amount of additional money Canon could have made on each and every product made specially for us "niche of a niche of a niche 1% group of Canon users". Instead, we're spending that amount as a baseline elsewhere.

Think for yourself. Am I right or am I wrong?

I have been reading what you wrote throughout this entire thread, and I didn't say 1%, I decided to go with 0.000001% and my answer is around 1500-3000$. Which I don't think would really benefit Canon at all.

I suppose you have to take that $1500 to $3000 and subtract the costs of R&D, manufacturing, marketing, and surely plenty of other costs I'm not thinking about at the moment. Looks pretty bleak pretty quickly.

Definitely.

3kramd5

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #460 on: June 13, 2014, 12:55:44 AM »
I suppose you have to take that $1500 to $3000 and subtract the costs of R&D, manufacturing, marketing, and surely plenty of other costs I'm not thinking about at the moment. Looks pretty bleak pretty quickly.

...management, NRE, testing, overhead, packaging, shipping, customer support, etc.
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Aglet

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #461 on: June 13, 2014, 11:27:11 PM »
Over the past vew pages the bunch of you have just had the most beat-around-the-bushes discussion of Signal to Noise Ratio I've ever seen.

Can't someone find or come up with a simpler explanation of how SNR affects image quality that you can all agree on?
I think 100 was closest in his last post and could simply add that, sensor technology (e.g. pixel size, read noise, dark noise, etc.) being about equal, when printing or scaling to any given size, the greater surface area of a FF sensor allows more noise averaging to occur than the same image, shot with the same field of view, from a smaller sensor.

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Re: Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800
« Reply #461 on: June 13, 2014, 11:27:11 PM »