November 25, 2014, 07:44:01 PM

Author Topic: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800  (Read 9067 times)


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Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« on: May 25, 2014, 09:50:04 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 09:57:57 PM »
That is laughable for several obvious reasons, first, they are saying the Ziess lens is perfect and causes zero resolution loss, that is impossible, it is either breaking the laws of physics, or their measurements are suspect yet again. And, just read any Nikon forum where people own both, and there are a surprising amount, they will tell you that is simply not true, yes the E does resolve slightly more, but 30% more, no.
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dilbert

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 10:17:12 PM »
That is laughable for several obvious reasons, first, they are saying the Ziess lens is perfect and causes zero resolution loss, that is impossible, it is either breaking the laws of physics, or their measurements are suspect yet again. And, just read any Nikon forum where people own both, and there are a surprising amount, they will tell you that is simply not true, yes the E does resolve slightly more, but 30% more, no.

Lets see. On the one hand we have a company that makes image correction software and understands lens performance and characteristics probably better than anyone else. On the other hand we have people such as yourself that, well, what exactly are your qualifications to argue that they're wrong? (Aside from having a web browser that is.)

Check out the measurements for the Zeiss Sonnar T* 135mm/2:
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Carl-Zeiss/Zeiss-Carl-Zeiss-Apo-Sonnar-T-Star-F2-135-ZF2-Nikon-mounted-on-Nikon-D800E---Measurements__814

... it is an amazing lens.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 10:22:43 PM by dilbert »

privatebydesign

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 10:50:27 PM »
Well I have 34 years of providing for myself and family by producing images, so I suppose you could say I know nothing.

On the other hand I could point you to the various articles, comments and such that point out the many inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and unmentioned "editing" (rewriting of the "facts") that have been made about DxO. Or that they claim to be scientists with scientific methods but won't actually share how they arrive at their end scores, so nobody, scientist or not, can check their "work"/opinions. Or point out, again, that they are claiming the physically impossible, nothing is perfect, not even a Zeiss 135.

But my dear dilbert, like the cartoon, you have proven to be a frustrating person to have a conversation with, you avoid direct questions (Does a 70D pixel enlarge as well as a 1Dx pixel?), rebuttals, and facts that don't align with your opinion, you change the subject, throw up strawman arguments, and seek to deliberately misrepresent what people say in their counter positions.

Bearing that in mind, I don't really care what your opinion is, or about the fact that DxO have embarrassed themselves as "scientists" yet again by claiming the physically impossible.
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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 11:20:44 PM »
the fact that DxO have embarrassed themselves as "scientists" yet again by claiming the physically impossible.

Hmmm....isn't DXO a French company?  I wonder if any of their "scientists" were involved in that faster-than-light neutrino error a few years ago.   ;D

privatebydesign

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 11:27:15 PM »
the fact that DxO have embarrassed themselves as "scientists" yet again by claiming the physically impossible.

Hmmm....isn't DXO a French company?  I wonder if any of their "scientists" were involved in that faster-than-light neutrino error a few years ago.   ;D

What's 60 nano seconds between friends? It doesn't matter that much does it?
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dilbert

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 06:13:10 AM »
Well I have 34 years of providing for myself and family by producing images, so I suppose you could say I know nothing.

And have you been using 35mm (135) format or something else to do that providing?

Quote
On the other hand I could point you to the various articles, comments and such that point out the many inconsistencies, inaccuracies, and unmentioned "editing" (rewriting of the "facts") that have been made about DxO. Or that they claim to be scientists with scientific methods but won't actually share how they arrive at their end scores, so nobody, scientist or not, can check their "work"/opinions. Or point out, again, that they are claiming the physically impossible, nothing is perfect, not even a Zeiss 135.

But my dear dilbert, like the cartoon, you have proven to be a frustrating person to have a conversation with, you avoid direct questions (Does a 70D pixel enlarge as well as a 1Dx pixel?), rebuttals, and facts that don't align with your opinion, you change the subject, throw up strawman arguments, and seek to deliberately misrepresent what people say in their counter positions.

Bearing that in mind, I don't really care what your opinion is, or about the fact that DxO have embarrassed themselves as "scientists" yet again by claiming the physically impossible.

They're not claiming the impossible, they're saying that one particular lens is able to produce a score of 36MP in their sharpness test. You're the one that is interpreting this as meaning there is no IQ loss. What the test actually says is that this lens provides at least as much resolution, if not more, than the sensor is capable of resolving. There's nothing in physics that says that is not possible, only you.

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 06:13:10 AM »

wickidwombat

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 05:29:37 AM »
nice! total flame war before the thread even cracks past page 1!
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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 01:42:22 PM »
DXO is prone to hyperbole.  They give a lens a high score on a D800E, but a low score on a D300s.
If you understand that, they are giving a score to a lens / camera combination, then you won't have a problem.
Of course, their formula for the score is secret.  They might give 25 points if the letter N or Z is in the name, for all we know.
 
There is one advantage to this, they avoid people discovering errors in their scoring methods by keeping it a secret.
 
It is not surprising that the same camera without AA filter has more resolution, it also has more moiré, which can make a image very sharp and totally unusable.  How many points for sharp moiré??  This is a huge issue for wedding photography where pin stripe suites and lace are prevalent.  It totally ruins images.  The same issue for fashion photography, fines stripes or lace, etc  ruin the image.  While its a fine camera, it is also pretty limited for money making usage.
 
I'm wondering about the new rumored version.  Is Nikon thinking they can repeal Nyquist, or do they count on DXO to tell everyone how sharp it is and give it a high score, but real world usage is limited.

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 05:57:02 AM »
DXO is prone to hyperbole.  They give a lens a high score on a D800E, but a low score on a D300s.
If you understand that, they are giving a score to a lens / camera combination, then you won't have a problem.
Of course, their formula for the score is secret.  They might give 25 points if the letter N or Z is in the name, for all we know.
 
There is one advantage to this, they avoid people discovering errors in their scoring methods by keeping it a secret.
 
It is not surprising that the same camera without AA filter has more resolution, it also has more moiré, which can make a image very sharp and totally unusable.  How many points for sharp moiré??  This is a huge issue for wedding photography where pin stripe suites and lace are prevalent.  It totally ruins images.  The same issue for fashion photography, fines stripes or lace, etc  ruin the image.  While its a fine camera, it is also pretty limited for money making usage.
 
I'm wondering about the new rumored version.  Is Nikon thinking they can repeal Nyquist, or do they count on DXO to tell everyone how sharp it is and give it a high score, but real world usage is limited.

DXO is far from unbiased and reliable. Just looka their lens scores...apparently according to their maths the old 70-200 f2.8 LIS is a better lens than the newer mkII version...yeah right! Nikon's sensors always score better than Canon's and yet their scoring system is a secret and unpublished. When the D800 was released DXO labs changed their maths formular (from that point on) and again the D800 has a higher score...but we all know that it's iso ability at 100% is a lot worse than the 5DIII's and yet it gets a higher score.

I have little time for DXO labs and photozone.de for that matter too. But hey, if you want to belive their web tests...go for it, it's a free community.

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2014, 01:51:32 AM »
..and again the D800 has a higher score...but we all know that it's iso ability at 100% is a lot worse than the 5DIII's and yet it gets a higher score.
what you mean?

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 01:57:41 AM »
That is laughable for several obvious reasons, first, they are saying the Ziess lens is perfect and causes zero resolution loss, that is impossible, it is either breaking the laws of physics, or their measurements are suspect yet again. And, just read any Nikon forum where people own both, and there are a surprising amount, they will tell you that is simply not true, yes the E does resolve slightly more, but 30% more, no.
unhindered by a normal AA filter, tell us why the camera cannot resolve a line-pair per line-pair of pixels using a lens that can resolve at even finer levels.

GMCPhotographics

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 05:02:40 AM »
That is laughable for several obvious reasons, first, they are saying the Ziess lens is perfect and causes zero resolution loss, that is impossible, it is either breaking the laws of physics, or their measurements are suspect yet again. And, just read any Nikon forum where people own both, and there are a surprising amount, they will tell you that is simply not true, yes the E does resolve slightly more, but 30% more, no.
unhindered by a normal AA filter, tell us why the camera cannot resolve a line-pair per line-pair of pixels using a lens that can resolve at even finer levels.

From what I've seen with people and their cameras, MegaPixels area little like horse power in their cars....at some point every one says..."I think that's quite enough". For some, that's around 100 bhp....for other's that's around 400 bhp (me a Jag XKR), others aren't happy until they have a Veyron or a LaFerrari. Everyone has compromises, desires and needs which vary from each other.

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 05:02:40 AM »

Aglet

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2014, 03:07:16 PM »
That is laughable for several obvious reasons, first, they are saying the Ziess lens is perfect and causes zero resolution loss, that is impossible, it is either breaking the laws of physics, or their measurements are suspect yet again. And, just read any Nikon forum where people own both, and there are a surprising amount, they will tell you that is simply not true, yes the E does resolve slightly more, but 30% more, no.
unhindered by a normal AA filter, tell us why the camera cannot resolve a line-pair per line-pair of pixels using a lens that can resolve at even finer levels.

From what I've seen with people and their cameras, MegaPixels area little like horse power in their cars....at some point every one says..."I think that's quite enough". For some, that's around 100 bhp....for other's that's around 400 bhp (me a Jag XKR), others aren't happy until they have a Veyron or a LaFerrari. Everyone has compromises, desires and needs which vary from each other.

Uhmmm... SORT OF related....
but we're arguing the difference an AA filter effect has on the same hi res sensor and how that can vary with different lenses used with it.

to reply to your point, I'll take all the good MP I can get, especially when there's no other significant drawback to doing so.

... gotta go spin my wheels now. ;)

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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 04:10:59 PM »
Dilbert, Canon Rumors is a Canon equipment related website and forum. Who cares about Nikon?!

Spread useful information and experience about Canon gear. But don't bother us with Nikon.
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Re: Nikon's D800E 30% sharper than D800
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 04:10:59 PM »