July 31, 2014, 08:11:33 PM

Author Topic: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]  (Read 8616 times)

Random Orbits

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1289
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2014, 11:04:48 AM »
I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
anyone remember how bad this place got pre 5Dmk3?

That was a fun time -- lots of activity.  Don't think the 7D2 will generate as much traffic as 5D3.  The tech is more mature now (relative to existing market offerings), and Sony's A7x, micro 4/3s, Fuji have all taken some of the market share and tech buzz.

There will be a number of very specific camps posting here once the specs are announced. Each camp can be quite easily predicted.
The Nikon trolls....where anything from Canon isn never good enough.
The Canon fanboys, where everyrhing from Canon is given from the very "hand of god".
The existing 1DX users, who don't see the point of the 7DII compared to their exisiting camera.
The 5DIII users who don't care for the 1.6 crop. The 5DIII users who fancy the 1.6 crop.
The upgraders from the 70D and the side graders from the 7D.
The "we want 15 stops DR or the camera is a failure" brigade.
The people who don't have enough money to justify a 7DII.
The people who don't have any camera but like to post their opinions on forums as if they did.

you are welcome to add or delete to my list

In the mean time....I'll be out shooting during my busiest time of the year.

LOL, I'm just hoping for a lot fewer/elimination of the unboxing videos...

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2014, 11:04:48 AM »

ahsanford

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2014, 11:14:48 AM »

The Problem Canon seems to have with the 1DX and 7DII, is that the 1DX is still selling well and the second Canon release a 7DII, those sales will tail off pretty fast. It's just not possible to make a 7DII without it being a 1.6x version of the 1DX. The 5DIII is already a full frame 1DX lite....so a 7DII must therefore be a cropped sensor 1DX lite also. Ergo, simular frame rate, AF array and 18mp as the 1DX.

Agree with the 'lite' statement, but a camera is far more than those three specs:

  • Consider what that 'lite'ness costs you: 
    • No integral vertical grip
    • Slower burst (presumed)
    • Can't get as small a DOF at the same aperture
    • No spot metering at any AF point
    • No built-for-war build quality (the current 7D is great, but I though the 1D build ways always a step up from that)

  • This forum is loaded full of people that reject the notion that an APS-C rig with an Xmm lens takes shots as good as a FF rig with a 1.6Xmm lens. (I don't want to start a back and forth on that here, but it's an important point in comparing 7D2's true threat to the 1DX's sales.)

So I feel that current or prospective 1DX users would feel a bit handcuffed on a 7D2 platform.  As such, I see a 7D2 user not having a tremendous overlap with 1DX users, and I only see 7D2 stealing a small amount of 1DX business.

I think the 7D2's #1 value proposition is for folks where length is everything.  The 1.6x either limits how expensive a supertele you need to buy (a 400mm instead of a 600mm) or it lets that 600mm do more as a 960mm FF equivalent.

So, I dont know why I have this locked in my head, but the 7D2 screams wildlife (esp. birding) to me.  It sure it will do most everything else well, but the value proposition to wildlife folks for length reasons is spectacular.  I don't have all the white lens prices in front of me, but getting 90-95% as good a shot as FF for half the price and weight of body + lens is a compelling sales argument.

(Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think:  1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format.  That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)

The #2 value proposition might be 'the best camera you can buy without moving into crazy dollars' -- and that screams enthusiast (who would rarely buy a 1DX) to me.

If anything, the 7D2 might steal business from the 1DX as a second body choice to complement their 1DX.  Sports guys, maybe?

- A

ahsanford

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2014, 11:21:22 AM »

I'm also curious to see what the price will be.  When I first offered that the 7D2 will cost more than the 6D, many disagreed.  I still think -- depending on the features and how good the sensor is -- this camera could comfortably climb above $2K (body only) at first offering.

For certain shooters, the 7D2 is their holy grail and it represents a spectacular savings in lens costs for them.  That small sliver of shooters would pay above $3k for it, I'd guess.

But, not knowing the specs and recognizing that Canon isn't building this rig just for wildlife/sports folks, I'm guessing this is a $1,999 - $2,499 rig at first offering.

- A

dadgummit

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 108
  • Canon FT-QL
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2014, 11:29:35 AM »

(Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think:  1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format.  That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)



Very true.  The 5d3 is 95% of the 1Dx and it is half the cost.  Once you get that good it is really expensive to get just a little better. 

AmbientLight

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2014, 01:23:14 AM »
There is an additional factor: I don't think a 7D Mark II will make a good backup camera for someone using a 1D-X as a primary camera. As a backup for a 1D-X shooter I see two obvious choices: Either a second 1D-X or a 5D Mark III. The latter has been my choice and I am quite happy with that combination, but using my old 7D as a backup isn't something I see as adequate. There is just too much of a difference and quite frankly I don't think whatever a new 7D Mark II can deliver will make it adequate.

This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers. I am just confused as to why replacing that camera takes Canon so long. To maximize on profits I expected a shorter product cycle. Ask yourselves: How many 7D users already upgraded to something else? Maybe there will be no replacement at all.

dufflover

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
  • OH YEAH!
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2014, 06:49:24 AM »
The "we want 15 stops DR or the camera is a failure" brigade.

Whilst not the highest on my list, it would weaken my personal perceived value of the camera (or at least a perception of where Canon continues to head) if they could not at least match the DR of Sony sensors from yester-year (by the time it comes out).

Hurry up Canon and do something with your sensors! :P

Marsu42

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4360
  • ML-66d / 100L / 70-300L / 17-40L / 600rts
    • View Profile
    • 6D positive spec list
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2014, 07:34:46 AM »
I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
anyone remember how bad this place got pre 5Dmk3?

That was mostly due to the Nikon high-dr high-mp d800 release ... unlike the 70d the 7d2 will be a stand-alone upgrade competing with nothing, question just if it will find enough buyers considering performance vs. price. Canon seems doubtful, that's why there is no 7d2 atm.

The 5d3 is 95% of the 1Dx and it is half the cost.

But this 5% include 100% of the rgb metering, sealing, x-sync, customizability, shutter life, faster af/lens speed, higher fps :-p

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2014, 07:34:46 AM »

GMCPhotographics

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 696
    • View Profile
    • GMCPhotographics
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2014, 08:11:51 AM »
I'm still prepping my bomb shelter for the hysteria as the 7D2 release gets closer
anyone remember how bad this place got pre 5Dmk3?

That was mostly due to the Nikon high-dr high-mp d800 release ... unlike the 70d the 7d2 will be a stand-alone upgrade competing with nothing, question just if it will find enough buyers considering performance vs. price. Canon seems doubtful, that's why there is no 7d2 atm.

The 5d3 is 95% of the 1Dx and it is half the cost.

But this 5% include 100% of the rgb metering, sealing, x-sync, customizability, shutter life, faster af/lens speed, higher fps :-p

No one ever mentions that the 1D-x's AI servo / face detection and colour AF tracking is noticably better than the 5DIII. Tracking wild sea birds in Ireland last week, the 5DIII's 6fps is well geared to it's AF tracking capability. While the 1D-X's 12 fps is well suited to it's improved AF capability.
I think durability wise, I've seen enough broken 1D-X's over the last few years to know that they aren't any more robust than a 5DIII. Yes the 1Dx is slightly better weather sealed, yes there is twice the frame rate. But there is more comonality between them then would first appear. The 5DIII really is the 3D we were all asking for. I think shutter life is a mute topic, and fro a £300 fix it's a minor issue. I know guys who had their 1DX shutter crap out at only 100K....it happens. A lot of it is to do with the envirnonment it was shot with (sand is a killer on any camera) and how well treated it's been. Many pro cams get thrown around because they are pro grade and look like they can take the punishment. Most of the internal ribbon cables inside are connected using the same ones on our laptops and we generally treat them with more respect.
Pros buy the 1D-X because they are on a 5 year turn around for their cameras. A lot of wild life guys traded up from 1DsIII's and the 1D-X makes a lot of sence. Most wedding photographers are on a 3 year replacement cycle due to the harsh condidtions. My 5DII's were in a pretty sorry state when i upgraded to 5DIII's (which still look fresh after 2 years). This is one aspect that serious hobbiests don't often consider, the longeviety and resale value of a pro item. I expect 10 years out of a lens minimum, but camera bodies are 2-3 years for me. That said, i'm very happy with my 5DIII's and would consider selling one of them and trading for a 1D-X.
If I did, I would need to see a 5 year return on the camera. Which is a problem becuase the camera is already a few years into it's product life and i'm sure a replacement will come down the line at some point.

Lee Jay

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2014, 09:50:05 AM »
This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers.

For me, a 7D is a complement to a 5D - one for reach and speed, one for low-light and image quality.  I'll take one of each if they are similar enough in user interface and technology.

GMCPhotographics

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 696
    • View Profile
    • GMCPhotographics
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2014, 10:16:55 AM »
This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers.

For me, a 7D is a complement to a 5D - one for reach and speed, one for low-light and image quality.  I'll take one of each if they are similar enough in user interface and technology.

But...a 5DIII and a 7DII will probably cost the same as a 1D-x....

bdunbar79

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2558
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2014, 10:50:41 AM »

(Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think:  1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format.  That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)



Very true.  The 5d3 is 95% of the 1Dx and it is half the cost.  Once you get that good it is really expensive to get just a little better.

I'd put it more at 75%.  I've shot extensively with both, indoor and outdoor sports, and with regards to AF accuracy and metering accuracy, 1Dx is winning by a fairly substantial margin.  In terms of AF accuracy I'd still put the 1D4 ahead of the 5D3, but not in ISO performance.  That and all the other things Marsu42 listed...
2 x 1DX
Big Ten, GLIAC, NCAC

Lee Jay

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2014, 11:21:48 AM »
This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers.

For me, a 7D is a complement to a 5D - one for reach and speed, one for low-light and image quality.  I'll take one of each if they are similar enough in user interface and technology.

But...a 5DIII and a 7DII will probably cost the same as a 1D-x....

And be many times more useful than a 1Dx.

bdunbar79

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2558
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2014, 11:33:53 AM »
This may sound rather pessimistic, but I suspect a 7D Mark II will find its place in the kit of people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a camera body, but who still want to have many pro-camera features, because this is the selling point of the 7D and by replacing it Canon should be aiming at the same kind of target customers.

For me, a 7D is a complement to a 5D - one for reach and speed, one for low-light and image quality.  I'll take one of each if they are similar enough in user interface and technology.

But...a 5DIII and a 7DII will probably cost the same as a 1D-x....

And be many times more useful than a 1Dx.

I found it less useful.  I had a 7D and a 5D3 I was using, but the 1Dx replaced both.  Instead of changing cameras on the sidelines or out in the field, I just kept shooting because the 1Dx did what each of those does and then even more.  I realize you need a supertele, but I have several, so that's not an issue.  You can't shoot with both cameras at the exact same time, so again, in my opinion, it was less useful.

The 1Dx has the speed, the AF, and the high ISO performance, all in one.  Why split it all apart into two different cameras when you can do it in one?  That's why a long lens on one, and a short lens on a 2nd one will always be the absolute best scenario.  Affordability is another situation.
2 x 1DX
Big Ten, GLIAC, NCAC

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2014, 11:33:53 AM »

Lee Jay

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 674
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2014, 01:36:55 PM »
The 1Dx has the speed, the AF, and the high ISO performance, all in one.  Why split it all apart into two different cameras when you can do it in one?  That's why a long lens on one, and a short lens on a 2nd one will always be the absolute best scenario.

That's why.  I keep a 24-105 on the full-frame and a 70-200 on the crop camera.

The question was about replacing both with ONE 1Dx, not two of them.

Tugela

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2014, 05:15:15 PM »

The Problem Canon seems to have with the 1DX and 7DII, is that the 1DX is still selling well and the second Canon release a 7DII, those sales will tail off pretty fast. It's just not possible to make a 7DII without it being a 1.6x version of the 1DX. The 5DIII is already a full frame 1DX lite....so a 7DII must therefore be a cropped sensor 1DX lite also. Ergo, simular frame rate, AF array and 18mp as the 1DX.

Agree with the 'lite' statement, but a camera is far more than those three specs:

  • Consider what that 'lite'ness costs you: 
    • No integral vertical grip
    • Slower burst (presumed)
    • Can't get as small a DOF at the same aperture
    • No spot metering at any AF point
    • No built-for-war build quality (the current 7D is great, but I though the 1D build ways always a step up from that)

  • This forum is loaded full of people that reject the notion that an APS-C rig with an Xmm lens takes shots as good as a FF rig with a 1.6Xmm lens. (I don't want to start a back and forth on that here, but it's an important point in comparing 7D2's true threat to the 1DX's sales.)

So I feel that current or prospective 1DX users would feel a bit handcuffed on a 7D2 platform.  As such, I see a 7D2 user not having a tremendous overlap with 1DX users, and I only see 7D2 stealing a small amount of 1DX business.

I think the 7D2's #1 value proposition is for folks where length is everything.  The 1.6x either limits how expensive a supertele you need to buy (a 400mm instead of a 600mm) or it lets that 600mm do more as a 960mm FF equivalent.

So, I dont know why I have this locked in my head, but the 7D2 screams wildlife (esp. birding) to me.  It sure it will do most everything else well, but the value proposition to wildlife folks for length reasons is spectacular.  I don't have all the white lens prices in front of me, but getting 90-95% as good a shot as FF for half the price and weight of body + lens is a compelling sales argument.

(Another reason why the 1DX overlap is smaller than you think:  1DX users aren't looking for 90-95% as good as something -- they want the best money can buy in that format.  That separates the users pretty clearly for me.)

The #2 value proposition might be 'the best camera you can buy without moving into crazy dollars' -- and that screams enthusiast (who would rarely buy a 1DX) to me.

If anything, the 7D2 might steal business from the 1DX as a second body choice to complement their 1DX.  Sports guys, maybe?

- A

A 1DX is a professional camera while the 5D and 7D are prosumer cameras. Prosumers would like to use professional cameras, but they cost too much. They whine and we see nonsense about vertical grips and 2000 focus points. Professional users use professional cameras because they cost too much, and it distinguishes them from prosumers. Both types of cameras will take equally good pictures on the fundamental principle that the quality of a picture (when intentional) is 99.9% due to the user, not the tool.

It is all about pretension folks. The "must have" features are not really "must have", they are just things to make you feel superior to "amateurs".

Given that reality, professional photographers are not going to stop buying the 1DX just because the 7D2 is released. It is just not going to happen. And in any case, new versions of the 1DX and 5D are going to appear in 2015. Canon are not going to cripple the 7D2 just to avoid competing with cameras that are due to be replaced with upgraded versions in the near future anyway. That would be stupid. The 7D2 has to be good for another three years, not another three months.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Reports of EOS 7D Reaching End of Life [CR2]
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2014, 05:15:15 PM »