September 16, 2014, 06:02:37 AM

Author Topic: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP  (Read 4671 times)

terminatahx

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 11:45:14 AM »
Interesting camera.  The high iso capabilities are clearly it's strongest attribute.  But I prefer much more than 12mp personally.  And the 4k "support" seems misleading as you have to pony up 2grand more to fully leverage it.  A yawner imho.
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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 11:45:14 AM »

unfocused

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 11:54:16 AM »
Admittedly, I don't follow Sony at all (and Nikon only a little), so let's see if I have this right:

Sony's A7-series is basically one camera body with your choice of three sensors: 12mp, 24mp and 36mp. It's an interesting concept. In fact, I've long thought that Canon might introduce a "5D HD" that would be essentially identical to the 5DIII but with a higher megapixel sensor. Saves development and manufacturing costs.

That they feel compelled to offer multiple sensors would demonstrate that despite what some on this forum seem to think, apparently even Sony can't defy physics.
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mackguyver

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 12:06:18 PM »
Admittedly, I don't follow Sony at all (and Nikon only a little), so let's see if I have this right:

Sony's A7-series is basically one camera body with your choice of three sensors: 12mp, 24mp and 36mp. It's an interesting concept. In fact, I've long thought that Canon might introduce a "5D HD" that would be essentially identical to the 5DIII but with a higher megapixel sensor. Saves development and manufacturing costs.

That they feel compelled to offer multiple sensors would demonstrate that despite what some on this forum seem to think, apparently even Sony can't defy physics.
I'd buy a 5D HD (or more likely 5Ds) - as there's little to nothing to complain about with the 5DIII :)
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AvTvM

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 01:33:44 PM »
I guess it's DXO (not Sony themselves) saying 15.3 EV ...
You guess wrong.  This is from Sony's website:

ups ... oh my ... didn't see that one. Where I am from Sony would not dare do this, they might get sued for misleading advertising here. :-)

pedro

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 04:01:40 PM »
Interesting camera.  The high iso capabilities are clearly it's strongest attribute.  But I prefer much more than 12mp personally.  And the 4k "support" seems misleading as you have to pony up 2grand more to fully leverage it.  A yawner imho.

12 MP are way enough for me. If my memory doesn't fail, there were some fellow posters here who opted for a low light cam with a lower pixel count. I would be absolutely in for such a beast either in the 6d or 5D segment. Although I think, Canon might leave the low light king to the 1 series... but a mirrorless beast with nice ISo 51k might be great. Maybe, the overnext 5D will do the job  8) Anyway, the 5D3 is way enough camera for an amateur tog like me!
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Sunnystate

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2014, 04:21:51 PM »
I am finding this forum more and more misleading in the worse fashion, lead by couple of devoted brainiacs with great ability to browse, process and serve confusing information.
It is so much like politics is scary!
Now even titles are intentionally skewed.
Internet is buzzing with reviews, positive impressions about Sony, and all we got here is bitter, sarcastic ind smart ass comments without the end in sight.
I own A7r and it is the best camera I ever own for my shooting style!

And yes I am here for the same reason many others are, waiting for a ray of hope from Canon, before I really will start selling my lenses, so please don't give me that just don't come and read Canon Rumors talk.

To counteract here just another terrible review of Sony (of course from another silly, unscientific, inapt source):
http://petapixel.com/2014/06/16/report-claims-sony-a7s-image-quality-comparable-medium-format/

privatebydesign

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 04:27:28 PM »
So it is has one stop less noise, if you look at the same LL images I just did, and 1/3 the pixels. Kinda puts the pixel size vs sensor size and noise equation to rest.

I don't want 36mp, but if you only take one stop of IQ hit at high iso's then it is clear small pixels taken as a sensor area are not noticeably noisier than much bigger pixels for the same sensor area, especially at low and medium iso's where the difference is much less.

I think Sony's marketing department reads forums for ideas and they then make what posters say they want, in reality that isn't what many people actually want at all.
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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 04:27:28 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2014, 04:37:19 PM »
I am finding this forum more and more misleading in the worse fashion, lead by couple of devoted brainiacs with great ability to browse, process and serve confusing information.
It is so much like politics is scary!
Now even titles are intentionally skewed.
Internet is buzzing with reviews, positive impressions about Sony, and all we got here is bitter, sarcastic ind smart ass comments without the end in sight.
I own A7r and it is the best camera I ever own for my shooting style!

And yes I am here for the same reason many others are, waiting for a ray of hope from Canon, before I really will start selling my lenses, so please don't give me that just don't come and read Canon Rumors talk.

To counteract here just another terrible review of Sony (of course from another silly, unscientific, inapt source):
http://petapixel.com/2014/06/16/report-claims-sony-a7s-image-quality-comparable-medium-format/

Reichmann has made several claims like that in the past (your link is a cut and paste from the original review so nothing new and not "another"), he has been widely lambasted for them in the past too. He first did it ten odd years ago with the Canon 1Ds, a very good camera in its time but hardly the medium format film beater he presented it to be.

He also said the Canon G10 was as good as a medium format digital back, and for that one image with no DR in good light etc etc, it was.

He has said the furor the various claims have made created his highest page hits too.............

The Sony is a nice camera that will appeal to a very small better off niche, it brings nothing new or groundbreaking to the field, it just presents that stuff in a different package more suited to some than most.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty-five years ago. The second best time is today.

horshack

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2014, 04:59:36 PM »
Reichmann is a bit optimistic in his appraisal of the A7s's High ISO capabilities. That said, the A7s High ISO raws posted at http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53852362 demonstrate what to me looks like a 1EV improvement in High ISO over the current best FF sensors (1DX/6D/D4s/Df). You can see the converted JPEGs here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53855688

dilbert

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2014, 05:23:54 PM »
Reichmann has made several claims like that in the past (your link is a cut and paste from the original review so nothing new and not "another"), he has been widely lambasted for them in the past too. He first did it ten odd years ago with the Canon 1Ds, a very good camera in its time but hardly the medium format film beater he presented it to be.

He also said the Canon G10 was as good as a medium format digital back, and for that one image with no DR in good light etc etc, it was.

He has said the furor the various claims have made created his highest page hits too.............

The Sony is a nice camera that will appeal to a very small better off niche, it brings nothing new or groundbreaking to the field, it just presents that stuff in a different package more suited to some than most.

For all the criticism that you and others send in his direction, remember that he buys this equipment with his own money to use for his work as a photographer and is somewhat successful at it. How many people here can claim to have both used AND owned as many medium format digital backs as he?

He doesn't just get review samples, he buys much of the equipment himself to use commercially. If he was a crank, people would largely ignore him. Given that it is the reverse, it is safe to assume that he isn't a crank.

dilbert

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2014, 05:34:12 PM »
Internet is buzzing with reviews, positive impressions about Sony, and all we got here is bitter, sarcastic ind smart ass comments without the end in sight.

Of course, what do you expect?

Lots of people here have spent thousands of dollars on what they consider to be A-grade photography equipment and don't take kindly to evidence that suggests that it isn't the best.

privatebydesign

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2014, 05:36:29 PM »
Reichmann has made several claims like that in the past (your link is a cut and paste from the original review so nothing new and not "another"), he has been widely lambasted for them in the past too. He first did it ten odd years ago with the Canon 1Ds, a very good camera in its time but hardly the medium format film beater he presented it to be.

He also said the Canon G10 was as good as a medium format digital back, and for that one image with no DR in good light etc etc, it was.

He has said the furor the various claims have made created his highest page hits too.............

The Sony is a nice camera that will appeal to a very small better off niche, it brings nothing new or groundbreaking to the field, it just presents that stuff in a different package more suited to some than most.

For all the criticism that you and others send in his direction, remember that he buys this equipment with his own money to use for his work as a photographer and is somewhat successful at it. How many people here can claim to have both used AND owned as many medium format digital backs as he?

He doesn't just get review samples, he buys much of the equipment himself to use commercially. If he was a crank, people would largely ignore him. Given that it is the reverse, it is safe to assume that he isn't a crank.

I wasn't sending any criticism his way. I merely pointed out some facts about his previous posting history.

As for ignoring cranks, and I never suggested or implied for one second Reichmann was one, Ken Rockwell proves conclusively that cranks are where the money is, oh and every "reality" show on TV, people, it would appear, would much rather listen to a crank than anything else.
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Sunnystate

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2014, 06:54:11 PM »
Internet is buzzing with reviews, positive impressions about Sony, and all we got here is bitter, sarcastic ind smart ass comments without the end in sight.

Of course, what do you expect?

Lots of people here have spent thousands of dollars on what they consider to be A-grade photography equipment and don't take kindly to evidence that suggests that it isn't the best.

Okay, denial is really mature way to deal with facts, won't even bother looking for examples ;-)
If I was a true Canon fan like you guys are, I would be happy and appreciate what Sony is doing, because thanks to Sony people like me still hold on to the Canon Glass and that gives them extra time to catch up and don't lose customers, I can always get another Canon body when it will be worth my money to invest.
I hope you can agree at least with that.

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2014, 06:54:11 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2014, 07:25:08 PM »
Okay, denial is really mature way to deal with facts...

I don't get the sense that anyone is in denial. In fact, as I stated earlier, this simply shows what most of the "true Canon fan(s)" as you refer to people, have been saying all along. No camera manufacturer can defy physics.

To get to clean, high ISOs, you need larger and fewer pixels. To get high resolution, you need more pixels, but the trade-off will be high ISO performance. If you want a reasonable compromise, you go somewhere in the middle.

High megapixels, low noise, High ISOs – regardless of the brand of sensor, you can have two of those things, but never all three.

Sony has attacked this problem with three different sensors in essentially the same camera. I'm curious to see if their gamble will pay off for them. I suspect that it won't, but if it does, I would fully expect Canon and/or Nikon to do something similar.

I only wish that the Canon-haters would be honest enough to recognize Sony's play as a not unsurprising strategy from a company that is clearly struggling to find a niche to fill in a market dominated by two long-time and very successful, innovative players.
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AvTvM

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2014, 03:20:17 AM »
To get to clean, high ISOs, you need larger and fewer pixels. To get high resolution, you need more pixels, but the trade-off will be high ISO performance. If you want a reasonable compromise, you go somewhere in the middle.

High megapixels, low noise, High ISOs – regardless of the brand of sensor, you can have two of those things, but never all three.

Unfortunately only true for today's Canon sensors.

All other manfufacturers are proving, that a good sensor design and good electronics behind it cause only minimal hits in Hi-ISO performance (mainly at ludicrously high ISOs beyond 6400) despite hi rez.

Michael Reichmann in his LL review of the A7s comes to the same conclusion:
12 MP A7s has onöly a tiny Hi-ISO advantage over 36 MP A7R ... in practive only relevant from ISO 6400 upwards.

I would be more than happy to give up 1 stop nosie advantage from 6400 upwards .. if I could get a Canon 36+ MP camera with D800E performance  ... in a mirrorless cam ... sized and priced like the Sony A7R. :-)

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Re: Sony A7s good at up to ISO 12,800 .. but only 12MP
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2014, 03:20:17 AM »