August 20, 2014, 04:56:14 PM

Author Topic: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?  (Read 17162 times)

Aglet

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2014, 05:32:39 PM »
....
In DxoMarkLand, Canon is outscored by Nikon, Sony, Fuji, even Pentax.  In the real world people buy camera systems based on their needs, and the fact that more people buy Canon dSLRs and lenses than any of their competitors' indicates that Canon better meets the needs and/or desires of more photographers.  That's reality...whether or not you can deal with it.

And those needs may be things like "I want WiFi in my camera." at the top of the customer's list.

knowledgable users buy what they need more than uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want. That's what Neuro keeps getting wrong.

Users buy what they want/need, not what you think they should want/need.  That's what you keep getting wrong.

not sure why you bother quoting my statement if you're not even responding to the point I made.
so you're still getting it wrong ;)

then you include:
Quote
Not everyone (in fact, almost no one) needs to push their exposure 4-5 stops in post.
you might actually expend some effort into posting an intelligent and considered response instead of mere sarcasm and trolling  ::)
By now you should know you can't push a Canon file 4 or 5 stops as well as you can an ABC camera's raw file.

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2014, 05:32:39 PM »

Aglet

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2014, 05:34:43 PM »
I'm just pointing out that the 2 aspects, image-quality vs getting-the-shot, do not embody exactly the same criteria as they are generally priorities for different situations, not necessary directly comparable.

'Getting the shot' ALWAYS trumps sensor-dependent image quality. ALWAYS.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2014, 06:19:15 PM »
....
In DxoMarkLand, Canon is outscored by Nikon, Sony, Fuji, even Pentax.  In the real world people buy camera systems based on their needs, and the fact that more people buy Canon dSLRs and lenses than any of their competitors' indicates that Canon better meets the needs and/or desires of more photographers.  That's reality...whether or not you can deal with it.

And those needs may be things like "I want WiFi in my camera." at the top of the customer's list.

knowledgable users buy what they need more than uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want. That's what Neuro keeps getting wrong.

Users buy what they want/need, not what you think they should want/need.  That's what you keep getting wrong.

not sure why you bother quoting my statement if you're not even responding to the point I made.
so you're still getting it wrong ;)

then you include:
Quote
Not everyone (in fact, almost no one) needs to push their exposure 4-5 stops in post.
you might actually expend some effort into posting an intelligent and considered response instead of mere sarcasm and trolling  ::)
By now you should know you can't push a Canon file 4 or 5 stops as well as you can an ABC camera's raw file.

That whooshing sound was the point sailing right over your head.  Sorry you missed it. Maybe the traffic on the bridge you habitually hide under was too loud?

You want me to respond to the point you made?  Ok. You implied that the majority of camera buyers are idiotic sheep that Canon's marketing department is leading by the nose, and I find that to be an offensive and demeaning sentiment.  I would hope that sentiment is beneath you, but honestly I'm not sure that's the case.

I am quite aware that 'you can't push a Canon file 4 or 5 stops as well as you can' a Sony/Nikon camera's raw file.  The point is how many people need to do that?  If the majority of dSLR users need to do that, and Canon sells the majority of dSLRs, then you're right – most buyers are idiots.  But I suggest instead the term idiot is best applied to anyone who actually believes that the majority (or even a significant majority) of dSLR buyers need to push their RAW files 4-5 stops in post. 
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neuroanatomist

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2014, 06:26:54 PM »
I'm just pointing out that the 2 aspects, image-quality vs getting-the-shot, do not embody exactly the same criteria as they are generally priorities for different situations, not necessary directly comparable.

'Getting the shot' ALWAYS trumps sensor-dependent image quality. ALWAYS.
13280 posts of not contributing anything new to the conversation

Not sure why you bother quoting my statement if you're not even responding to the point I made.

Oh, wait...I do know.  It's because you know you're wrong but you're unable to admit it.  Maybe you'd care to share some examples of where 'better IQ' trumps getting the shot.  Perhaps some of your lovely shots of the inside of a lens cap pushed 4 stops in post?   ::)
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sdsr

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2014, 08:04:49 PM »

knowledgable users buy what they need more than uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want. That's what Neuro keeps getting wrong.


If by "uneducated" you mean novices who haven't spent hours researching camera reviews, hanging out in camera forums, etc., and if we can assume from their market share that such people buy Canon more than other brands, does that mean, then, that Canon's ads and other marketing devices are more effective than anyone else's?  Is there any evidence to support this?  The only camera ads I've noticed on TV are Ashton Kutcher's for Nikon; I don't recall ever seeing a Canon ad anywhere (though perhaps that's just because I watch & read the wrong things).  I suspect that marketing isn't as effective as you (and marketing departments) think - my first dslr was a Nikon, not because I had swooned at the sight of Mr. Kutcher or read tons of reviews (though I had probably looked at more than most novices do), but largely because my father had one and I thought he might be a useful resource.  Novice friends and colleagues of mine who have no interest at all in spending hours researching this stuff have often followed my advice because they've seen some of my photos and think I'm trustworthy, in part because what I say about various cameras makes sense to them (I don't talk to them about dynamic range....); and I'm sure that's true of others.  Some may be act on name recognition (they have Canon copiers at work or at home) or because they see masses of Canon cameras at sporting events, or because they took a camera course one weekend where the instructor used a Canon.  Others pay attention to salesmen (it's instructive to spend some time in camera stores listening to interactions between staff and novices). 

As for who needs what, beyond the basics ("I want to take photos of my toddler roaming around the house so I can email them to his grandmother") you probably don't know until you do a lot of photography and take it seriously enough to think about what your equipment is stopping you from doing and why it makes your photos look the way they do.  To the extent that Neuro is suggesting that Canon is successful despite not doing so well in various DXO et al. tests because those relative deficiencies don't matter to most people, that's probably true in some sense, but also a bit misleading:  I doubt Rebel buyers chose Canon because they know noisy shadows at low ISOs and lower resolution aren't significant to them and don't fall within their "needs" - rather, they haven't the slightest idea what any of those things mean, either at all or in practice (in Rumsfeld-ese, this is known-unknowns or unknown-unknowns territory).  Try talking to a novice about APS-C vs FF, crop factors, etc., let alone the advantages of shooting RAW and fiddling around with software....   It's not because they're stupid or uneducated or dupes of marketing; it's just that they have other priorities. 

privatebydesign

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2014, 08:29:04 PM »

knowledgable users buy what they need more than uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want.

That is very true. That is why I buy Canon cameras and lenses for stills imaging.
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ishdakuteb

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2014, 09:11:04 PM »
I'm just pointing out that the 2 aspects, image-quality vs getting-the-shot, do not embody exactly the same criteria as they are generally priorities for different situations, not necessary directly comparable.

'Getting the shot' ALWAYS trumps sensor-dependent image quality. ALWAYS.
13280 posts of not contributing anything new to the conversation

so you are saying with 864 of your post, you have contributed many things including new conversations?  to my eyes, it does not matter
1. how many years of experience you have, and
2. what branch of camera you are buying

you cannot get better image quality than mine in anyways.  how big you want me to print with this below image, quick snap of my cup, which was shot with canon 30d, 50mm f/1.4 lenses at iso of 640 (absolutely no noise reduction)? and it is shot with the purpose to prove... right after i saw your post.

one of your friend, dilbert, (backing up for each other) posted an image with a note indicates that it was too bad that he has to convert srgb for web.  i was laughing so hard since that image would look much more worse when it is in rgb.  i have learned about managing of color space for few months by now since my personal understanding is that color moods is as much as important as light.

question:  "... buy what marketing tells them they should want" are you talking about yourself?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 09:50:22 PM by ishdakuteb »

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2014, 09:11:04 PM »

3kramd5

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2014, 09:53:44 AM »
I'm just pointing out that the 2 aspects, image-quality vs getting-the-shot, do not embody exactly the same criteria as they are generally priorities for different situations, not necessary directly comparable.

'Getting the shot' ALWAYS trumps sensor-dependent image quality. ALWAYS.

Right? I can't quite grasp the notion that they're competing interests.

Do I sometimes stumble into a great image? Sure. Couple weeks back shooting a model on the beach under harsh sunlight, I either overshot or killed the batteries in my flash (don't recall which), and I got a really cool quasi-silhouette with a deep blue hue and gorgeous edge highlights on her shoulders and knees.

So yah, sometimes when you don't get the shot, you still get the shot. As a hard and fast rule, however, if you don't get the image you set out for, the quality is insignificant.
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sdsr

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2014, 04:38:18 PM »
The high ISO comparison between 5DIII, A7r & A7s at dpreview may be of interest if you haven't seen it yet:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4613822764/high-iso-compared-sony-a7s-vs-a7r-vs-canon-eos-5d-iii/2

privatebydesign

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2014, 07:03:48 PM »
The high ISO comparison between 5DIII, A7r & A7s at dpreview may be of interest if you haven't seen it yet:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4613822764/high-iso-compared-sony-a7s-vs-a7r-vs-canon-eos-5d-iii/2


Interesting, thanks for the link.

IMHO, which is rarely considered humble, I don't get it. All this noise and chatter over one stop better high iso, very high usable iso.
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K-amps

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2014, 03:25:04 AM »
Guys, Why is there such emotion, calling names, ad homenim instead of talking objectively....  we are all intelligent adults here. If some people are ok with Canon falling behind one step at a time at things it used to excel at in the past, then congrats to the competitors, my take is, competition is good, some of it will trickle into Canon products, then we are all happy. We just need to be a little Patient, I think the new Canon sensor tech will please "most of" us....

The problem I have with innovators like Sony is they change formats too often and whoever has a collection of lens is left with a less than ideal situation of mount mismatches and workarounds. This is where Sony is failing to convert new users, even if they are speed of innovation is impressive.

I think almost everyone (save very few true trolls) are Canonites, why do we bicker like a dysfunctional family so much.... Chill.... don't hate.... understand the human aspect of why someone is saying something and don't start a war that will consume your day with negativity.

Stay positive and discuss ideas only please, not people,

I come to this forum because I learn from the generous experts here who share their knowledge and ask for nothing in return, I mean, what a bargain....

Lets please be polite and respectful to all fellow Canonites and leave out the sarcasm behind.  We are all skilled at debating ideas without the need to resort to personal attacks.
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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2014, 07:46:13 AM »
Guys, Why is there such emotion, calling names, ad homenim instead of talking objectively....  we are all intelligent adults here. If some people are ok with Canon falling behind one step at a time at things it used to excel at in the past, then congrats to the competitors, my take is, competition is good, some of it will trickle into Canon products, then we are all happy. We just need to be a little Patient, I think the new Canon sensor tech will please "most of" us....

The problem I have with innovators like Sony is they change formats too often and whoever has a collection of lens is left with a less than ideal situation of mount mismatches and workarounds. This is where Sony is failing to convert new users, even if they are speed of innovation is impressive.

I think almost everyone (save very few true trolls) are Canonites, why do we bicker like a dysfunctional family so much.... Chill.... don't hate.... understand the human aspect of why someone is saying something and don't start a war that will consume your day with negativity.

Stay positive and discuss ideas only please, not people,

I come to this forum because I learn from the generous experts here who share their knowledge and ask for nothing in return, I mean, what a bargain....

Lets please be polite and respectful to all fellow Canonites and leave out the sarcasm behind.  We are all skilled at debating ideas without the need to resort to personal attacks.
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sdsr

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2014, 05:20:05 PM »
The high ISO comparison between 5DIII, A7r & A7s at dpreview may be of interest if you haven't seen it yet:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4613822764/high-iso-compared-sony-a7s-vs-a7r-vs-canon-eos-5d-iii/2


Interesting, thanks for the link.

IMHO, which is rarely considered humble, I don't get it. All this noise and chatter over one stop better high iso, very high usable iso.


Exactly!

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2014, 05:20:05 PM »

unfocused

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2014, 10:28:00 AM »
knowledgable users buy what they need more than uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want. That's what Neuro keeps getting wrong.

Sorry, but this statement is just plain wrong. It demands a teaching moment.

Let's break it down: "Knowledgeable users buy what they need...

Go take a look at the "Anything shot with a 1DX" thread on this site. Go take a look at any of the Flicker groups dedicated to any brand's flagship camera – Sony, Nikon or Canon. Page after page of images all shot by knowledgeable users who clearly didn't buy what they needed

The truth is, if Canon, Nikon and Sony only sold cameras and lenses to those who need them, none of us would be able to afford a camera or lens.

People buy want they want and then rationalize it by saying it's something they need.  (Note: I make an exception here for the professional in any industry who truly does have a need for specific tools for specific jobs. But I have had enough life experience to know that even among business people, purchases are often driven by want rationalized as need.

"...uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want."

This is so wrong, I hardly know where to begin.

Do you really think that after more than a century and billions upon billions of dollars spent on research, that marketing experts only know how to sell products to "uneducated" users?

If it makes you feel better and somehow superior to fool yourself into thinking you are able to outsmart people whose livelihood depends on selling you products that you think you need and believe you have independently and objectively assessed, go right ahead.

Trust me, businesses have your type down pat. If you are intrigued by Sony's A7s do you really think you arrived at that through some independent thought process, absent their product targeting?

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Aglet

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2014, 10:10:36 PM »
thanks again to interesting moderation on this forum, my recent reply post was removed.  Likely for being too accurate and complete in its assessments.

@Neuro

I implied nothing, which is clear from my statement.  perhaps you should re-read it below.

Quote from:  aglet
knowledgable users buy what they need more than uneducated users who buy what marketing tells them they should want.

There's not even adequate context from which it can be construed to contain any basis for your outrageous response!

It's merely a statement on the state of marketing to consumers and can apply to cameras, cars, or (technology-based) consumer goods of any type.

As for any others who may agree or disagree with that statement, thank-you for expressing your viewpoints in an intelligent and respectful manner instead of following someone else's egregious example.

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Re: DxO reviews Sony A7s: king of low light photography?
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2014, 10:10:36 PM »