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AprilForever

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2011, 10:17:13 PM »
Why would anyone want the 7D to be a 1dmk4?

That's like trying to make your youngest son act like the oldest! Just not cool!
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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2011, 10:17:13 PM »

psycho5

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2011, 10:26:40 PM »
There is a complicating factor here that needs to be acknowledged: with Canon abandoning the APS-H sensor, no one knows what direction they will go in the future to meet the demands of photographers who relied on the extra reach of the 1.3 crop factor of the 1D.

For now, Canon seems to be playing some games with that customer base (promoting "up sampling" for example as a viable alternative to greater resolution). I think they will be watching that market very closely to see if some of these photographers migrate to the 7D, possibly as a second body.

The 7D might not be as indestructible as the 1D series, but it is does have a robust build and could certainly hold its own under most conditions. My own sense is that there may not be enough room in the marketplace for a APS-C body significantly above the 7D. However, I am not privy to Canon's manufacturing costs, so I don't know if it would be cost effective to offer a bombproof, one-piece gripped 7D X version. At a minimum, a 7DII that inherits enough key features of the 1DX to make it attractive to professionals, while still affordable for enthusiasts is plausible.

If there is anything we've learned from Canon over the past two months, it is that past behavior is not an accurate predictor of future behavior. Canon has demonstrated that they are unafraid to take new and unpredictable paths.


THANK YOU, at least someone understands my point with the 7D! yes, its not labeled a 1D camera, but one doesnt have to look too far in the past to see how it outperforms the 1D series. The thing is a beast. it can definately hold its own.

Maybe the roadmap for the 7Dii contains the 1Dx sensor and the 60D becomes the successor to the 7D and the rebel becomes the new 70D... why not push everything up a notch and leave the sub-$1000 market to the 4/3 and point and shoot market? besides, the iphone is the number 1 most used camera reported on flickr... how many people are going to buy a cheap dslr over a free, highly capable point and shoot that comes with their iphone?

besides, I think several days ago CR posted a slide of Canon's roadmap and I didnt see any DSLR on the "consumer" side

what is "up sampling" anyways?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 10:31:59 PM by psycho5 »

AprilForever

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2011, 10:30:46 PM »
There is a complicating factor here that needs to be acknowledged: with Canon abandoning the APS-H sensor, no one knows what direction they will go in the future to meet the demands of photographers who relied on the extra reach of the 1.3 crop factor of the 1D.

For now, Canon seems to be playing some games with that customer base (promoting "up sampling" for example as a viable alternative to greater resolution). I think they will be watching that market very closely to see if some of these photographers migrate to the 7D, possibly as a second body.

The 7D might not be as indestructible as the 1D series, but it is does have a robust build and could certainly hold its own under most conditions. My own sense is that there may not be enough room in the marketplace for a APS-C body significantly above the 7D. However, I am not privy to Canon's manufacturing costs, so I don't know if it would be cost effective to offer a bombproof, one-piece gripped 7D X version. At a minimum, a 7DII that inherits enough key features of the 1DX to make it attractive to professionals, while still affordable for enthusiasts is plausible.

If there is anything we've learned from Canon over the past two months, it is that past behavior is not an accurate predictor of future behavior. Canon has demonstrated that they are unafraid to take new and unpredictable paths.


THANK YOU, at least someone understands my point with the 7D! yes, its not labeled a 1D camera, but one doesnt have to look too far in the past to see how it outperforms the 1D series of the past. The thing is a beast.

Maybe the roadmap for the 7Dii contains the 1Dx sensor and the 60D becomes the successor to the 7D and the rebel becomes the new 70D... why not push everything up a notch and leave the sub-$1000 market to the 4/3 and point and shoot market? besides, the iphone is the number 1 most used camera reported on flickr... how many people are going to buy a cheap dslr over a free, highly capable point and shoot that comes with their iphone?

besides, I think several days ago CR posted a slide of Canon's roadmap and I didnt see any DSLR on the "consumer" side

what is "up sampling" anyways?


They had better not switch the 7D sensor!!! I'll... I'll switch to Pentax!!!  ;D

Hear me, Oh hear me, o ye Canon engineers: leave that ASP-C alone! Do not bloat it! I would be heartily enraged to have my glass shortened and my corners worsened...
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psycho5

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2011, 10:46:18 PM »

They had better not switch the 7D sensor!!! I'll... I'll switch to Pentax!!!  ;D

Hear me, Oh hear me, o ye Canon engineers: leave that ASP-C alone! Do not bloat it! I would be heartily enraged to have my glass shortened and my corners worsened...

your 7D would not be going anywhere, it would just have a 70D name on it and the 7D mkii would be the perfect camera for everyone who doesnt give a s*** about a 36mp 5diii studio camera with inferior low light performance to the 1Dx sensor.

Hear me Canon... merge the 1Dx sensor with the 7D!

xD series - Full Frame pro
xxD series - 1.6 professional crop
xxxd series - 4/3, P&S, and consumer

Cetalis

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2011, 10:47:22 PM »
Another issue I would like to bring up is the fact that there is no excuse for any DSLR manufacturer to make cheap products anymore... leave the china-made s*** to the 4/3s market and finally focus on quality engineering for ALL DSLRs and their corresponding lenses (EF, EFS)

But that'd be unprofitable. Every manufacturer, save Leica and some of the medium format people, does this. Every company except pentax sells unsealed kit plastic lenses, and the majority of people are fine with it. Also, Japan is somewhat prone to natural disasters, though the rest of Southeast Asia where they're outsourcing production isn't exactly safe either. I do agree there is a hole in the lineup though; the 7D's sealing begs for an equally sealed EF-S.

There is a complicating factor here that needs to be acknowledged: with Canon abandoning the APS-H sensor, no one knows what direction they will go in the future to meet the demands of photographers who relied on the extra reach of the 1.3 crop factor of the 1D.

For now, Canon seems to be playing some games with that customer base (promoting "up sampling" for example as a viable alternative to greater resolution). I think they will be watching that market very closely to see if some of these photographers migrate to the 7D, possibly as a second body.

The 7D might not be as indestructible as the 1D series, but it is does have a robust build and could certainly hold its own under most conditions. My own sense is that there may not be enough room in the marketplace for a APS-C body significantly above the 7D. However, I am not privy to Canon's manufacturing costs, so I don't know if it would be cost effective to offer a bombproof, one-piece gripped 7D X version. At a minimum, a 7DII that inherits enough key features of the 1DX to make it attractive to professionals, while still affordable for enthusiasts is plausible.

If there is anything we've learned from Canon over the past two months, it is that past behavior is not an accurate predictor of future behavior. Canon has demonstrated that they are unafraid to take new and unpredictable paths.


THANK YOU, at least someone understands my point with the 7D! yes, its not labeled a 1D camera, but one doesnt have to look too far in the past to see how it outperforms the 1D series. The thing is a beast. it can definately hold its own.

Maybe the roadmap for the 7Dii contains the 1Dx sensor and the 60D becomes the successor to the 7D and the rebel becomes the new 70D... why not push everything up a notch and leave the sub-$1000 market to the 4/3 and point and shoot market? besides, the iphone is the number 1 most used camera reported on flickr... how many people are going to buy a cheap dslr over a free, highly capable point and shoot that comes with their iphone?

besides, I think several days ago CR posted a slide of Canon's roadmap and I didnt see any DSLR on the "consumer" side

what is "up sampling" anyways?

The 7D is a 7D because it is has a crop sensor; otherwise itd be between the 1D/1Dx and the 5D.
The whole point of a DSLR is that it's not a point and shoot, or at least to most people. To them it's the giant brick like camera that must do better than everything else cause the mirror makes a cool sound. Okay maybe its not that bad but still. Canon was the first to push DSLRs into the sub$1000 market, and they make an enormous profit from it: enough to justify producing at least 4 rebels (not sure if the XS is still being made) and  the 60D.
Upsampling is making the picture larger, like magnifying it past 100%.

psycho5

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2011, 10:59:38 PM »
@Cetalis

it is almost worth the effort to perform a market study to see how much the iphone has impacted the rebel series and to find out if the 4/3 could replace the rebel altogether. same how Apple has quite arguably the best products in the notebook/tablet market while acer, dell, and the rest still make plastic fantastics.

its just an idea, of course canon will not go this route... shipping junk is surely profitable when people buy cameras because the shutter makes a loud "film advance" sound.... how funny btw.

RC

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2011, 11:04:42 PM »
Quote
Play around with the 16-35mm for a while.  It is a good lens.  I went with the 85mm f1.8 prime, and you might want to think about something like that if you are going to be changing lenses anyway.  I would like to try the 50mm in a head to head contest with it though (on my FF camera) to see if it would have worked better.

Since I've now exhausted my camera money, I've got a good while to play with and learn what I have.  Still need/want (is there a difference?)  a normal or close to normal prime.  The 35 1.4 and 50 1.4 are two that's been on my list.  Everything I read about the 85 1.8 is extremely positive.  However, this is probably a lower priority lens at this time since I have the 100 2.8 Macro and I'm shooting on a crop camera.

Good grief, I think I've got G.A.S. http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2114.0.html

I don't want to be that guy.  Time to enjoy and work with I already have.

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2011, 11:04:42 PM »

RC

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2011, 11:10:23 PM »
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You will love the 16-35 (my favorite lens on 7D) and the 24-70 is an amazing beast of a lens, I LOVE THEM!  ;D the 70-200 is2 however sits at home more often than not

That gets me even more excited hearing that!  Lens is expected to arrive early next week giving me a long holiday weekend to enjoy. ;D

wickidwombat

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2011, 11:39:46 PM »
I would like to see the 7d2 get the sensor from the 1D mk4 as a step up and keep the aps-h line alive
this would address the high iso noise nicely it wont touch canon sales of 1dx it will still be  massive benfit to birders and wildlife shooters maybe they could even take the now old 45 point AF and stick it in there since the new top shelf model has a better one (Nikon have had 51 point sensors in their mid level cameras for a while now) The key would be it maintaining the more compact form factor as that is the thing that appeals to me the most for the 7D and the weather sealling of course. Price point? maybe a bit under 2k for that and it would sell like hot cakes. keep the battery the same to maintain compatability with the 5D2 and existing 7D. (I think you will see alot of 1D-X buyers will get one of these too)
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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2011, 11:41:09 PM »
Quote
They had better not switch the 7D sensor!!! I'll... I'll switch to Pentax!!!  ;D

Hear me, Oh hear me, o ye Canon engineers: leave that ASP-C alone! Do not bloat it! I would be heartily enraged to have my glass shortened and my corners worsened...

Although I thought I was pretty clear, perhaps not.

I'm certainly not suggesting that Canon would ever switch sensor size on the 7D. I was simply pointing out that for those who need longer reach, the death of the 1.3 crop leaves them with only two choices: tele-extenders or the 7D.  Given that choice, an APS-C sensor is preferable for most applications.

My point was simply that Canon may choose to fill that need with a future 7D or with some variation of the same. I suggested two plausible paths: 1) enhance the 7D II by including some of the features of the 1DX into the new body (processor, autofocus, etc.) or 2) offer a souped-up version of the 7D II (7D X?) that is geared to professionals (bombproof and built with a one-piece gripped body, instead of a separate grip.

Finally, the central point was simply that Canon, in the past two months, has proven to be much more innovative than many people assumed. So, while it's fund to speculate, it's become much more difficult to do so with any degree of confidence.
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psycho5

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2011, 11:42:32 PM »
Quote
You will love the 16-35 (my favorite lens on 7D) and the 24-70 is an amazing beast of a lens, I LOVE THEM!  ;D the 70-200 is2 however sits at home more often than not

That gets me even more excited hearing that!  Lens is expected to arrive early next week giving me a long holiday weekend to enjoy. ;D


yeah, if I was in a situation where I could only take one lens with me, the 16-35 wins out everytime!  :D

wickidwombat

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2011, 11:58:14 PM »
Quote
You will love the 16-35 (my favorite lens on 7D) and the 24-70 is an amazing beast of a lens, I LOVE THEM!  ;D the 70-200 is2 however sits at home more often than not

That gets me even more excited hearing that!  Lens is expected to arrive early next week giving me a long holiday weekend to enjoy. ;D


yeah, if I was in a situation where I could only take one lens with me, the 16-35 wins out everytime!  :D

i would imagine it would be razor sharp on a 7D corner to corner and be a good walk around (26mm to 56mm)
even on the APS-H it gives a nice 21mm to 46mm which is not bad for a walk around i also like how it all move internally not like the 24-105 or 24-70 and its quite light and balanced
I just got a light craft workshop ND fader in 82mm for it, havent tried it out yet but cant wait, i've use it with a hoya  slim CPL before and its great
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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2011, 02:33:34 AM »
There is no legitimate reason for the lack of EF-S L lenses.  It is purely a marketing decision.

In the old days of film, people had no hesitation putting L lenses on their lower end $300-$500 camera bodies.  Canon encouraged this.  Look through some old photo magazines.  Canon generally promoted their wide range of lenses more than individual bodies.  In the old days, when people changed cameras less frequently, the money was in lens sales.

It's a bit different today.  A recent stat published on CR suggested that most people stick with their kit lens and don't invest in a second lens.  However, people are clearly updating cameras a lot more frequently.  Canon's advertising is predominantly aimed at selling new bodies.

How do they make more money?  By selling more expensive, higher margin bodies.

And how do they do that?  By convincing people that only the plebs would use a crop body.  After all, if you were serious about image quality, you would be using full frame.  Plus, you can't be considered a serious pro unless you're using a full frame camera.  If you use a full frame camera, your pictures will exude pure awesomeness.  And if you use a full frame camera, you can use the L lenses at their designed-for field of view.

Of course, it is not just Canon promoting this view, but also "the internet' in general.

Now, maybe Canon is right and they are doing us a favour encouraging us to move to full frame.  Full frame cameras probably are (for most applications) "better".  I know that I'm keen to see what the 5Diii will look like.  Not only am I interested in technically better image results, but I want to go back to using my lenses for the purposes they were designed.  I like using well built lenses.  My 10-22 works as well as my 17-40, but the 17-40 is a joy to use, works very smoothly and doesn't have a focus ring that wobbles.  I used my 70-200 a lot more when 70mm meant 70mm.

Anyway, back on topic. Canon should produce EF-S L lenses.  There is no reason for them not to. In fact, if I was them, I'd take advantage of the crop sensor and produce a range of fast, small, L primes.  In particular, a 12, 24, 50, 85mm. 

The other argument that people use against EF-S L lenses is that L lenses should be compatible with the higher end professional full frame bodies.  What nonsense!  Although I don't have access to Canon's sales statistics, I'd be willing to bet that there are more amateurs out there with L lenses on crop bodies than pros with 1 series bodies.  Plus, I find it hard to believe that a 1Ds user would mistakenly buy an EF-S lens purely because it had an L designation.  And if they did, well.....

(Sorry for my "rant for the day" but I get upset when people infer that I'm not worthy of using a particular product, simply because I don't use the right camera body.)
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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2011, 02:33:34 AM »

ZeuZ

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2011, 03:56:05 AM »
Question Neuro

Are the EF-S lens openings not adapted to their format? So that f2.8 is actually f1,75 in the case of the 17-55mm? How do you know?

Thx for the info

L series lenses are 'professional' lenses.  1-series bodies are 'professional' bodies.  So, an EF-S 'professional' lens, which wouldn't work on a 'professional' body, is a non-starter. 

I suppose Canon could slap a blue ring, magenta ring, whatever, on a new series of lenses that are 'semi-pro' EF-S lenses with better build and sealing.  But consider - among APS-C cameras, currently only the 7D has a reasonable level of weather sealing and high-end build quality.  Comparing that to the the sheer number of other APS-C models with lesser build/sealing, it may not make a lot of (financial) sense for Canon to develop sealed lenses for a small image circle camera since the market just wouldn't be there.

I remember when I has the 17-55 2.8 IS on my 7D and I love having the IS for video shooting.  Since moving to the 5D mkII, I am a bit frustrated that they dont have an equivalent 2.8 zoom with IS (the 24-70 2.8 I mean) and that the only option for IS would be the get the 24-105 f4 which is a no go for me for indoor shooting.

It's a common fallacy.  In fact, the 24-105mm f/4L IS on FF outspecs the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS on APS-C in nearly every way.  Consider - in terms of focal length and DoF for the same framing, the FF equivalent of the 17-55mm f/2.8 is 27-88mm f/4.5.  So, the 24-105mm f/4 is wider and longer, has 1/3-stop shallower DoF, and still has IS.  Going from an APS-C sensor to a FF sensor gains you 1.3 stops of improved ISO noise performance based on total light gathered, meaning you can bump up the ISO on the 5DII by one stop to compensate for the loss of light going from f/2.8 to f/4, and still get nearly 1/3-stop less noise.  The only thing you really lose is the functionality of the high-precision f/2.8-sensitive center AF point - in every other way, the 24-105mm on FF will be better than the 17-55mm on APS-C.

neuroanatomist

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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2011, 09:10:43 AM »
As of this moment I would NEVER buy an efs lens because all of them are plastic fantastics that wont last a single day out in the field.

Many of the L-series lenses are plastic, too.  The EF-S 10-22mm, while very light, is actually quite well-built.  But I do see your point...

Another issue I would like to bring up is the fact that there is no excuse for any DSLR manufacturer to make cheap products anymore... leave the china-made s*** to the 4/3s market and finally focus on quality engineering for ALL DSLRs and their corresponding lenses (EF, EFS)

What, and leave all those profits on the table?  There's a reason Canon released MkII versions of the 18-55mm IS and 55-250mm - updates which didn't change the optics, but rather reduced production costs by a small per-unit amount.  Those lenses are their most popular sellers, and it's the profits from those cheap Taiwan and Malaysia-made lenses that enables the development of those L-series lenses you like so much.  Without all that plastic-fantastic, no more L lenses.
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Re: ? on why Canon ignored...
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2011, 09:10:43 AM »