December 18, 2014, 05:08:36 PM

Author Topic: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder  (Read 5141 times)

dppaskewitz

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2014, 10:30:24 PM »
Instead of adapting for and purchasing a 105mm CPL, just get a 4x4 CPL from Lee or other mfgs...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/216637-REG/LEE_Filters_PLC_G_4x4_Circular_Polarizer_Glass.html

This solution requires two Lee foundation kits that rotate independently (so you can align your grad and CPL independently of one another).  If I recall correctly other posts on this topic, you end up with a vignetting issue when you get down to UWAs.  If I'm wrong, I would be happy to know that.
5Dc; 6D; M; several lenses.  Enthusiast.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2014, 10:30:24 PM »

emko

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2014, 12:10:45 AM »
sorry for stupid question but if i put a 10stop nd filter and a CPL i cant see anything what do you do to find out how much to turn the CPL for example to remove reflections in water?

Otter

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2014, 12:42:26 AM »
sorry for stupid question but if i put a 10stop nd filter and a CPL i cant see anything what do you do to find out how much to turn the CPL for example to remove reflections in water?

You need to do is rotate your CPL until you achieve the desired result, then put your 10 stop ND filter in.  A 10 stop ND filter is always last to go in after you have set up your composition and adjusted any needed filters as you can't see anything after it is in front of your lens.

ahsanford

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2014, 01:21:24 PM »
sorry for stupid question but if i put a 10stop nd filter and a CPL i cant see anything what do you do to find out how much to turn the CPL for example to remove reflections in water?

You need to do is rotate your CPL until you achieve the desired result, then put your 10 stop ND filter in.  A 10 stop ND filter is always last to go in after you have set up your composition and adjusted any needed filters as you can't see anything after it is in front of your lens.

That's correct.  My approach (noting I've only used mine about 5 times) is below, and any comments/feedback would be welcomed:

1) I scout the shot handheld and then set up.  Tripod, cable release, Lee ring & holder, etc.

2) Switch to M, Av, Tv mode -- whatever you prefer.  ISO 100*.  Always shoot RAW with the Big Stopper -- many have a color shift that you need to back out in post, and RAW gives you a greater ability to do that.  For a host of reasons, I switch to manual focus before doing anything.  (Forgetting to do this later can burn you when the Big Stopper is in place.)  I never remember to do this, but this is where I should cover the optical viewfinder for the odd risk of light leak.

3) In LiveView, I frame up everything the way I want it.  Everything but the Big Stopper should be in place (CPL, ND Grad perhaps, etc.) and rotated / located the way I want it.  I won't get into composition as I'm a rookie on that front, but on the technical side of things, I usually opt to manually focus at 10x zoom 1/3 of the way into the frame as many landscapers recommend.

4) If LiveView is showing me what I want to see in the shot (minus the long exposure the Big Stopper will give me), I write down or remember my aperture and ISO settings.

5) I put my Big Stopper in.  My new shutter speed will be whatever I had before times 2^10 = 1024.  (Note this is a rough number and that your specific Big Stopper may vary a bit -- you'll learn this as you shoot with it.)  You can do the math yourself, read the card that came with your Big Stopper, or just get an ND filter app for your phone.

6) I usually just switch to Bulb mode, but you technically don't have to if the computed time is under 30 seconds -- you can use M mode then.  I input the ISO and aperture from LiveView, and I take the shot with a cable release (in the locked position) and a timer on my phone.  I haven't invested in an cable release with a built-in timer, but that is an option as well.

*I'd imagine that you don't always want 1,024x slowdown and buttery blending.  But if you don't have standalone ND filters that are less strong than the Big Stopper, could you cheat and push ISO up to speed up the shot in Step 4, and by extension, take a much shorter final exposure, right? I know jacking up ISO is heresy for a landscape shooter, but it is possible, right?

Feedback appreciated if there is an easier/better way to use the Big Stopper, thanks!

- A

dppaskewitz

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2014, 05:19:45 PM »
sorry for stupid question but if i put a 10stop nd filter and a CPL i cant see anything what do you do to find out how much to turn the CPL for example to remove reflections in water?

You need to do is rotate your CPL until you achieve the desired result, then put your 10 stop ND filter in.  A 10 stop ND filter is always last to go in after you have set up your composition and adjusted any needed filters as you can't see anything after it is in front of your lens.

That's correct.  My approach (noting I've only used mine about 5 times) is below, and any comments/feedback would be welcomed:

1) I scout the shot handheld and then set up.  Tripod, cable release, Lee ring & holder, etc.

2) Switch to M, Av, Tv mode -- whatever you prefer.  ISO 100*.  Always shoot RAW with the Big Stopper -- many have a color shift that you need to back out in post, and RAW gives you a greater ability to do that.  For a host of reasons, I switch to manual focus before doing anything.  (Forgetting to do this later can burn you when the Big Stopper is in place.)  I never remember to do this, but this is where I should cover the optical viewfinder for the odd risk of light leak.

3) In LiveView, I frame up everything the way I want it.  Everything but the Big Stopper should be in place (CPL, ND Grad perhaps, etc.) and rotated / located the way I want it.  I won't get into composition as I'm a rookie on that front, but on the technical side of things, I usually opt to manually focus at 10x zoom 1/3 of the way into the frame as many landscapers recommend.

4) If LiveView is showing me what I want to see in the shot (minus the long exposure the Big Stopper will give me), I write down or remember my aperture and ISO settings.

5) I put my Big Stopper in.  My new shutter speed will be whatever I had before times 2^10 = 1024.  (Note this is a rough number and that your specific Big Stopper may vary a bit -- you'll learn this as you shoot with it.)  You can do the math yourself, read the card that came with your Big Stopper, or just get an ND filter app for your phone.

6) I usually just switch to Bulb mode, but you technically don't have to if the computed time is under 30 seconds -- you can use M mode then.  I input the ISO and aperture from LiveView, and I take the shot with a cable release (in the locked position) and a timer on my phone.  I haven't invested in an cable release with a built-in timer, but that is an option as well.

*I'd imagine that you don't always want 1,024x slowdown and buttery blending.  But if you don't have standalone ND filters that are less strong than the Big Stopper, could you cheat and push ISO up to speed up the shot in Step 4, and by extension, take a much shorter final exposure, right? I know jacking up ISO is heresy for a landscape shooter, but it is possible, right?

Feedback appreciated if there is an easier/better way to use the Big Stopper, thanks!

- A

I am by no means an expert.  I have used other NDs more than the Big Stopper, but the principles are pretty much the same.  I concur with you and have only a few additional thoughts.

I use M mode almost all the time (except, for example, from a moving train), because that is what I am getting used to (makes much more sense to me than exposure compensation, for example).  I suppose Av would also work, but that seems to me to be an extra step, once the aperture is set in M anyway.  Concur on RAW (if using LR, I don't see the need to shoot anything else).  I use back button focus.  Then, if I remember not to push the back button after focusing, however I have focused (that is, using either camera mode or tweaking with the focus ring in Live View), I am set with focus and don't need to switch back and forth to manual focus.

I do use 100 ISO unless I am using other NDs than the Big Stopper, for example 2 stops plus 3 stops, and need another stop slower.  Then I use 50 ISO.  I haven't thought of or tried your idea of pushing ISO and adjusting exposure time.

I tend to use an app to check depth of field because my eyesight isn't great.  I do use live view and 10X magnification when possible (i.e., when there isn't a glare problem I can't overcome).

I don't follow you on the shutter speed being 1024 times whatever the camera said without the Big Stopper (at set ISO and aperture).  I find either the Big Stopper card or a phone app. will give the answer.

I'm not sure what you mean by inputting the ISO and aperture.  Aren't those already in the camera?  Don't you just adjust the shutter speed by the 10 stops (or so, depending on your Big Stopper)?

I've been just counting out the seconds when I need to go to bulb, but the EXIF data generally tells me I got it wrong (I didn't give it as much time as I thought I did), so I like your idea of using the cell phone timer.  Or investing in a cable release with timer (so many gadgets, so little money).

DPP
5Dc; 6D; M; several lenses.  Enthusiast.

ahsanford

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2014, 11:26:21 PM »
I am by no means an expert.  I have used other NDs more than the Big Stopper, but the principles are pretty much the same.  I concur with you and have only a few additional thoughts.

I use M mode almost all the time (except, for example, from a moving train), because that is what I am getting used to (makes much more sense to me than exposure compensation, for example).  I suppose Av would also work, but that seems to me to be an extra step, once the aperture is set in M anyway.  Concur on RAW (if using LR, I don't see the need to shoot anything else).  I use back button focus.  Then, if I remember not to push the back button after focusing, however I have focused (that is, using either camera mode or tweaking with the focus ring in Live View), I am set with focus and don't need to switch back and forth to manual focus.

I do use 100 ISO unless I am using other NDs than the Big Stopper, for example 2 stops plus 3 stops, and need another stop slower.  Then I use 50 ISO.  I haven't thought of or tried your idea of pushing ISO and adjusting exposure time.

I tend to use an app to check depth of field because my eyesight isn't great.  I do use live view and 10X magnification when possible (i.e., when there isn't a glare problem I can't overcome).

I don't follow you on the shutter speed being 1024 times whatever the camera said without the Big Stopper (at set ISO and aperture).  I find either the Big Stopper card or a phone app. will give the answer.

I'm not sure what you mean by inputting the ISO and aperture.  Aren't those already in the camera?  Don't you just adjust the shutter speed by the 10 stops (or so, depending on your Big Stopper)?

I've been just counting out the seconds when I need to go to bulb, but the EXIF data generally tells me I got it wrong (I didn't give it as much time as I thought I did), so I like your idea of using the cell phone timer.  Or investing in a cable release with timer (so many gadgets, so little money).

DPP

Great stuff, thanks.

A few responses:

  • I always forget about back button AF.  I'm too stubborn to switch, but yes, that would cleverly solve the shutter button refocus problem I referred to.

  • ND 3.0 = 10 stops, right?  That's 2^10 (i.e. 1,024) times less light getting through, so that's your shutter speed multiplier, isn't it?  My phone app says 1000x for a 3.0 ND, and the Lee card would seem to corroborate that:  http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/Portals/1/product/images/prd8e36ed5a-8cf0-430f-a76c-22bcdd6e3154.jpg

  • "Inputting ISO and aperture" means that I leave M or Av mode (whatever mode I framed the shot in) and go to Bulb.  Switching settings (especially away from Av) often moves things back to what I last shot manually, which usually means I lose my settings.  I have to do to bulb usually b/c my exposures are often longer than 30 seconds and all modes other than Bulb caps at 30s, I thought.  Bulb mode is basically M without a shutter speed input, so all you need is ISO and aperture -- that's where the statement came from.

- A

emko

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2014, 12:53:43 AM »
i have the screw on filters so i am thinking the holders are easier to setup

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2014, 12:53:43 AM »

dppaskewitz

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2014, 02:47:18 PM »
Thanks for your input.  I'm learning.  My comments below in RED.

Great stuff, thanks.

A few responses:

  • I always forget about back button AF.  I'm too stubborn to switch, but yes, that would cleverly solve the shutter button refocus problem I referred to.  On my 6D, I have Custom Function III as one of my options on ""My menu settings."  Makes switching out of back button focusing (by enabling shutter button metering and focusing) relatively easy.  I imagine other modern cameras would have similar.  Not so much on my old 5D.

  • ND 3.0 = 10 stops, right?  That's 2^10 (i.e. 1,024) times less light getting through, so that's your shutter speed multiplier, isn't it?  My phone app says 1000x for a 3.0 ND, and the Lee card would seem to corroborate that:  http://www.speedgraphic.co.uk/Portals/1/product/images/prd8e36ed5a-8cf0-430f-a76c-22bcdd6e3154.jpg  It took me a while, but now I get it.  Simply multiply 1024 by the shutter speed without the Big Stopper to get the exposure time with the Big Stopper.  Since most of the shutter speeds without are really fractions of 1 over something, the actual calculation is to divide 1024 by the denominator of the shutter speed (e.g., divide 1024 by 250 for a shutter speed of 1/250th, yielding an exposure time of roughly 4 seconds, which is in accord with the Lee card).  And then divide by sixty to get minutes, if that is helpful in keeping track of the time.  Good to know in the field if the cell phone app isn't working and the Lee card is somewhere else. 

  • "Inputting ISO and aperture" means that I leave M or Av mode (whatever mode I framed the shot in) and go to Bulb.  Switching settings (especially away from Av) often moves things back to what I last shot manually, which usually means I lose my settings.  I have to do to bulb usually b/c my exposures are often longer than 30 seconds and all modes other than Bulb caps at 30s, I thought.  Bulb mode is basically M without a shutter speed input, so all you need is ISO and aperture -- that's where the statement came from.
  Right you are.  On the 6D, when I switch from M (my framing, focusing and aperture setting mode) to B (for shots over 30 seconds),  the ISO appears to stay the same as set in M (which makes sense) but as you note, the aperture changes to whatever aperture I had set when last using B, not what I had last set in M.  Thanks for the reminder.

- A
5Dc; 6D; M; several lenses.  Enthusiast.

fynnieb

  • SX60 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2014, 03:26:34 AM »
Hi There, Im new to the Filter world and just wondering if you could help me.

I see your test and wonder why Im getting this issue on my shot, I've just used the big stopper and .9grad on some shots down the beach and even at 19mm and F8 on my 16-35 F4 ( 5diii ) i seem to have darker corners graduating into my shot. At 16 very bad, I have the wide angle adaptor and only the two filters in. Ive spoken to the Suppliers today and they say its the lens. but its brand new and doesn't do this in normal shots,

Thanks and I appreciate anyones feedback - is the F4 lens different to the 2.8 some how and can this effect it? am  Doing something wrong?


ahsanford

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2014, 11:19:57 AM »
Hi There, Im new to the Filter world and just wondering if you could help me.

I see your test and wonder why Im getting this issue on my shot, I've just used the big stopper and .9grad on some shots down the beach and even at 19mm and F8 on my 16-35 F4 ( 5diii ) i seem to have darker corners graduating into my shot. At 16 very bad, I have the wide angle adaptor and only the two filters in. Ive spoken to the Suppliers today and they say its the lens. but its brand new and doesn't do this in normal shots,

Thanks and I appreciate anyones feedback - is the F4 lens different to the 2.8 some how and can this effect it? am  Doing something wrong?

That should not be happening.  Since we have the same lens, the only things I can think of are:

  • You might be shooting with a standard Lee ring and not a WA (wide angle) Lee ring.  The WA rings tuck the entire apparatus closer to the lens to minimize the risk of vignetting.  See this video for what I am talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPVBR3CKRk -- I believe you have to have the WA ring for shooting wider than 24mm on a FF rig.

  • You said you have two filters in, but that isn't what matters -- how many slots are in your holder? A three slot holder will vignette more than than a two slot holder, and so on.  Think about it for a sec and it should make sense: the more something of width/diameter X gets pushed away from the front lens element, the more likely it will creep into the field of view.

  • Do you already have a filter on your lens before you screw in your Lee ring?  That will stack the thickness and you will see vignetting kick in 'sooner' as you go from long to wide on the focal length.  In WA lenses, you really need to screw the ring on to the naked lens to avoid/minimize vignetting.

  • Are you using the Lee system holder, or do you have another company's holder?  Lee isn't the only one that works, but the data I gave was for their 'Foundation' holder from the 100mm system.  Other holders may have slightly different thickness and location to the front element of the lens, which may affect your results.

That's the best I can think of.

- A

alben

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2014, 01:22:58 PM »
Agree with ahsanford`s method, only things I can add are to set WB manually before inserting BS, (one colour cast is enough to remove) daylight seems to work best and do cover the OV, blue tack or a piece of electrical tape will do the job.

Regards Alan

Khalai

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Let there be (flattering) light!
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2014, 03:18:14 AM »
Hi There, Im new to the Filter world and just wondering if you could help me.

I see your test and wonder why Im getting this issue on my shot, I've just used the big stopper and .9grad on some shots down the beach and even at 19mm and F8 on my 16-35 F4 ( 5diii ) i seem to have darker corners graduating into my shot. At 16 very bad, I have the wide angle adaptor and only the two filters in. Ive spoken to the Suppliers today and they say its the lens. but its brand new and doesn't do this in normal shots,

Thanks and I appreciate anyones feedback - is the F4 lens different to the 2.8 some how and can this effect it? am  Doing something wrong?

I experienced similar corner darkening with my LittleStopper and .75ND G. There may be obstruction problem with the Stoppers foam ring perhaps?
6D | 7D | 16-35/4L | 24-70/2.8L II | 50/1.4 (release 50/1.4 II already!) | 100/2.8L | 70-200/2.8L II

xps

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 404
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2014, 04:43:17 AM »
I prefer to use an srew-in polarisation filter. The glass filter from Lee are to dark. (High transmission polarisation filter). Heliopan is producing one of the "brightest" polarisation filter (high transmission), followed by the Käsemann multicoated (this filter is just a little bit darker - but more expensive).


canon rumors FORUM

Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2014, 04:43:17 AM »

xps

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 404
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2014, 04:50:12 AM »
Instead of adapting for and purchasing a 105mm CPL, just get a 4x4 CPL from Lee or other mfgs...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/216637-REG/LEE_Filters_PLC_G_4x4_Circular_Polarizer_Glass.html

I was not satisfied by the darkness of this filter. And I had the problem of  a "grey shaping" - the light was reflecting inside the filter when used in bright sunlight. This "grey shaping" did not appear by using an screw-in filter.

xps

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 404
    • View Profile
Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2014, 04:59:11 AM »
This is very helpful.  I'm still using the 17-40 but hope to migrate to the 16-35 f/4 shortly.  I've been in the process of trying to figure out the Lee holder/CPL/UWA conundrum.  Next step:  order the 105 ring and the B&W CPL.  Thanks.
Before you pull the trigger on the 105 CPL, you should consider the wonderpana system:
http://www.wonderpana.com/

I haven't used it, but it's basically a Lee-style system with much larger filters so that the vignetting problem is a non-issue for UWA focal lengths.  If you want to stack stuff and have a CPL at 16mm, this is the system you should look into.

That said, I love my Lee setup.  It's well built and has industry standard sizing so I am not married to first party 4x6 filters or CPLs.  And it's flexible and powerful.  I can double my ND grads on harsh sunlight, stack an ND grad with a 10 stop ND, and now with a front ring the CPL is an independent consideration if I need to manage the sky (only for longer FL) or reflections (at any FL).  The only time I need to juggle/think is between 16-20mm, and that's fine by me.

- A

The wonderpana system works well, but it is much more expensive than the more common Lee system. A friend of mine uses this system (Nikon 14mm). He told me that the filters are from great quality.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Vignetting test with new EF 16-35 F/4L IS and Lee Filter Holder
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2014, 04:59:11 AM »