October 25, 2014, 01:34:42 PM

Author Topic: Which Bokeh Monster?  (Read 7461 times)

wickidwombat

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2014, 06:38:46 AM »
Again its on crop body....

yes the 85 is awesome but you have to look at the shooting situation
on a crop and in doors the 85 will be often too long just as the 135 is on full frame

i find 85 and 35 on full frame bodies the ideal mix in doors

outdoors i love the 135 when i have enough room
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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2014, 06:38:46 AM »

Menace

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2014, 07:14:20 AM »
I suggest 85L to the OP too.

I Love my 85L - admittedly on one of my FF bodies :)
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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2014, 07:56:00 AM »
85L because you already have a 70-200. If it's too pricey, the 85mm 1.8 still looks really good.

Sabaki

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2014, 07:57:45 AM »
OP is using a crop body


Hey wickidwombat :)

I'll be getting my 6D shortly, time to delve in the world of full frame bodies ;)
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wickidwombat

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2014, 08:02:00 AM »
OP is using a crop body


Hey wickidwombat :)

I'll be getting my 6D shortly, time to delve in the world of full frame bodies ;)

ok that solves it 85... 200% based on your desired use ;)

however the 50 ART is still amazing...

Personally if I were in your situation i would wait at the moment and see why sigma does with the 85 ART

the canon 85 II is certainly good but its expensive and its slow on an non 1D body

the current sigma 85 1.4 is great and good value with faster AF than the canon but given the ART series build I think wait and be happy with your 70-200 for now
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2014, 08:24:47 AM »
OP is using a crop body

I missed that, thanks for pointing it out!

Sabaki – instead of the 85L II, I'd suggest giving your excellent lenses thinner DoF and more OOF blur by getting a 6D.  Your 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 lenses on your 500D are giving you the DoF of f/4.5 on a FF camera; conversely, you would need f/1.8 zoom lenses on your APS-C body to get the DoF your f/2.8 lenses would give on FF.

The other issue is that your camera does not have AF microadjustment, which IMO is critical if shooting with shallow DoF such as a fast prime wide open, even on APS-C. 

EDIT: Since you are getting the 6D, I reiterate my recommendation for the 85L II.
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PKinDenmark

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 09:28:45 AM »
Hi Sabaki.
Congratulations on your decision to move to 6D (hope you will be as thrilled as I am, since I moved to 6D from crop, 450D).
Seeing that you have the 100mm 2.8 L macro I suggest, that you start out with that one to get some feel for the FL (not too far from 85mm as many suggested above) and the much greater bokeh on FF, than you were used to on crop. I like it for portraits - though not exactly a 'monster'.
Based on that you can make a more experienced decision.
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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 09:28:45 AM »

gruhl28

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2014, 10:15:46 AM »
OP is using a crop body
..
My recomendation for a crop body is the 50 ART

I don't know- to me, the 50mm perspective is a little odd except a full body portrait. The fact that an APS-C sensor crops it doesn't alter the perspective for the lens.


That's not true. Perspective is determined solely by distance. On an APS-C camera with a 50mm you would stand at the same spot as when using an 80mm on full frame, so the perspective with 50mm on crop is the same as an 80mm on full frame.

NWPhil

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2014, 10:56:37 AM »
If indeed you getting a FF body, then I would suggest taking a look at other "bokeh monsters" out there:

look at these guys work:
http://www.4photos.de/test/Meyer-Goerlitz-Trioplan-100mm-2.8.html
http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/orestor/Interesting
http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?id=17451

Aside the MOG trioplan 100 2.8, there is also the Orestor 135mm and the Helios 442-2 85mm
search for pics on flickR and other sites - they will deliver quite an unique bokeh and overall look
worth to give them a try because they are cheap in fair condition, but are all manual, and you will need an adapter with a focus-confirm chip
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Sabaki

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2014, 12:22:17 PM »
OP is using a crop body

I missed that, thanks for pointing it out!

Sabaki – instead of the 85L II, I'd suggest giving your excellent lenses thinner DoF and more OOF blur by getting a 6D.  Your 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 lenses on your 500D are giving you the DoF of f/4.5 on a FF camera; conversely, you would need f/1.8 zoom lenses on your APS-C body to get the DoF your f/2.8 lenses would give on FF.

The other issue is that your camera does not have AF microadjustment, which IMO is critical if shooting with shallow DoF such as a fast prime wide open, even on APS-C. 

EDIT: Since you are getting the 6D, I reiterate my recommendation for the 85L II.

Now this is super interesting Neuro.

Going on your post, is it fair to say that a f/2.8 lens cannot give f/2.8 on a crop body?

I've heard that DOF isn't the same between crop & FF but you seem to have a formula working here.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 12:34:47 PM »
Now this is super interesting Neuro.

Going on your post, is it fair to say that a f/2.8 lens cannot give f/2.8 on a crop body?

I've heard that DOF isn't the same between crop & FF but you seem to have a formula working here.

The formula is the crop factor.  For the same framing comparing APS-C and FF, with the smaller sensor you are either 1.6x further away (or using a correspondingly shorter focal length), either of which will give you a deeper DoF.  Basically, the crop factor applies not only to focal length, but also to aperture in terms of DoF for equivalent framing.

The suggestion above to try your f/2.8 lenses on the 6D before deciding on a prime is a good idea.  With the 85L on my 7D, I often shot wide open.  On FF, I'm usually at f/1.6-1.8 for a little deeper DoF.
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sagittariansrock

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 02:32:28 PM »
OP is using a crop body
..
My recomendation for a crop body is the 50 ART

I don't know- to me, the 50mm perspective is a little odd except a full body portrait. The fact that an APS-C sensor crops it doesn't alter the perspective for the lens.


That's not true. Perspective is determined solely by distance. On an APS-C camera with a 50mm you would stand at the same spot as when using an 80mm on full frame, so the perspective with 50mm on crop is the same as an 80mm on full frame.

You're right, my mistake. I was thinking about using a different focal length on the same sensor, which will alter the subject distance and therefore the perspective. Don't know why I was thinking that. Of course, perspective depends solely on subject distance.
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sdsr

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 04:48:07 PM »
Hi Sabaki.
Congratulations on your decision to move to 6D (hope you will be as thrilled as I am, since I moved to 6D from crop, 450D).
Seeing that you have the 100mm 2.8 L macro I suggest, that you start out with that one to get some feel for the FL (not too far from 85mm as many suggested above) and the much greater bokeh on FF, than you were used to on crop. I like it for portraits - though not exactly a 'monster'.
Based on that you can make a more experienced decision.

I agree.  In fact almost all Sabaki's lenses can conjure up nice bokeh in the right circumstances.  Blurring isn't just the result of aperture - distance from the subject, distance of background from subject, and lens magnification all matter too (along with other factors, such as the number of aperture blades and their shape) - though of course, other things being equal, the faster the aperture the better.  But other things aren't always equal - 85mm lenses tend to have a mfd of at least 3 feet, and you may well be able to get more/better background blur with a slower lens that magnifies more or lets you get closer or both (e.g. the 100L).  Toss in the effect of switching to FF and it probably makes sense to suggest Sabaki doesn't buy any lenses yet - s/he may get enough blurring with what s/he already has.  Of course, if one can afford an 85L, it's hard to go wrong (aside from the terrible purple fringing - scarcely better, if at all, than the 85mm 1.8 in that regard).

It may also be worth noting that the meaning of "bokeh monster" may not be clear-cut.  In my experience lenses vary in bokeh appeal depending on the circumstances - I have fast lenses that create beautiful smooth blurred background effects if you can get fairly close to the subject but that, as you get further from the subject and/or the background is farther from the subject, create backgrounds that are far less smooth and even unpleasant.  Some fast lenses, especially older ones, have aberrations which rather than creating a smooth blur add a distinctive character to the blur, including, in some instances, giving the effect of making out of focus highlights appear to swirl around the subject (this especially happens with lenses that create "cats' eyes" rather than smooth circles towards corners).  Lenses with fewer aperture blades make out of focus highlights rapidly become less round (hexagonal, etc.) as you stop them down (a few old Russian lenses, which have up to 20 blades, never do so).  Some lenses described as bokeh monsters are manual only (e.g. the Tokina 90mm 2.5 macro that's dubbed "Bokina" in some, um, circles).  And so on.

So it all rather depends on the effects you want, the subjects you like to photograph and the conditions you're likely to be presented with.  Which is why you might as well wait and see what you can achieve with your current lenses on your 6D when you get it; it would be a shame to spend all that money on an 85L only to discover that you can get the effects you want with your 100L....


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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 04:48:07 PM »

Ruined

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 05:09:26 PM »
I did not see OP had a crop body.

In this case, I would recommend 50 f/1.2L definitely over 85 f/1.2L.

50L would give ~80mm FOV on crop
85L would give ~136mm FOV on crop

The 50L would be leagues more versatile for portraits.  Also, compared to the Sigma ART 50 f/1.4, the Canon 50 f/1.2L lets in 50% more light which is extremely important for crop to keep the noise down.

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 05:31:47 PM »
I imagine focal lengths 85mm+ helps compress facial features which any client would see as a positive ☺️

Bearing in mind you say you are moving to FF, I would point out that when shooting tight head shots the 135 focal length will be more flattering than the 85 as you will be further away. However, other than this I find the 85 to be a much more versatile focal length.

Must agree with the poster who said try your current lenses with the 6D. The excellent 100L @ 2.8 may give you just what you want. In truth not many want less than f2.8 dof with 100 mil when close and shooting a tight crop.

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Re: Which Bokeh Monster?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 05:31:47 PM »