October 25, 2014, 09:56:13 PM

Author Topic: DXO uh-oh?  (Read 21174 times)

arcanej

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
DXO uh-oh?
« on: July 24, 2014, 02:51:48 PM »
As DXO has given a near perfect score to the D810, they may have painted themselves into a corner. Their proprietary scale doesn't give DXO much room to heap hyperbolic praise on the next Nikon release.

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/07/24/nikon-d810-sensor-new-dxomark-leader.aspx/

canon rumors FORUM

DXO uh-oh?
« on: July 24, 2014, 02:51:48 PM »

candyman

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1416
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 02:56:46 PM »
As DXO has given a near perfect score to the D810, they may have painted themselves into a corner. Their proprietary scale doesn't give DXO much room to heap hyperbolic praise on the next Nikon release.

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/07/24/nikon-d810-sensor-new-dxomark-leader.aspx/

Irrelevant since I don't use Nikon and I don't use DxO as review source.

mackguyver

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2999
  • Who Dares Wins
    • View Profile
    • My Personal Work
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 03:02:35 PM »
Yes, the sky is falling, what will us poor Canon shooters do now???  Keep taking great photos with our poor underperforming sensors, of course 8)

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14758
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 03:17:19 PM »
No, their Biased Scores (abbreviated BS) are 'open ended' - they don't top out at 100.   They planned well...their BS can go on steaming and stinking with no end in sight...
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Orangutan

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 745
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 04:05:42 PM »
Their scale goes up to 11...

MichaelHodges

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 05:01:17 PM »
Congrats to Nikon for another world class sensor.


jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4483
  • EOL
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 05:13:41 PM »
No, their Biased Scores (abbreviated BS) are 'open ended' - they don't top out at 100.   They planned well...their BS can go on steaming and stinking with no end in sight...

LOL

Their scale goes up to 11...

You mean their scale goes up to ∞! ∞ is to 11 as 11 is to 10 in this case. :P MOAR!!

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 05:13:41 PM »

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4483
  • EOL
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 05:13:54 PM »
As DXO has given a near perfect score to the D810, they may have painted themselves into a corner. Their proprietary scale doesn't give DXO much room to heap hyperbolic praise on the next Nikon release.

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/07/24/nikon-d810-sensor-new-dxomark-leader.aspx/

This really isn't a surprise. DxO and Nikon are inseparably joined at the hip. Plus, all this really means, particularly the new 14.8 stops Print DR number, is that Nikon is cooking their RAW files EVEN MORE. Nikon/Sony's biggest "cheat" is the fact that they clip to black point, instead of offsetting to black point. Nikon cameras just throw away a lot of low-level signal information. The Sony Exmor sensor gives them more room to do that, for sure, but they are still throwing away information.

Canon, on the other hand, does not clip, they offset. So ALL the noise in the deep shadows of Canon's signal is still there (it's always there, in every sensor). Canon could probably achieve better results by using a more significant offset...and at times, as they have improved their sensor tech and increased their bit depth, they have changed their bias offset. It used to be 128 to 256 back in the 10-bit days, it was 512 to 1024 in the 12 bit days. I think it's 1024 or 2048 with 14-bit cameras.

The kicker is that RAW editors don't have to honor Canon's bias offset. The entire RAW signal is stored in Canon's files, and the offset is calibrated with a border of masked pixels. Who knows if editors like Lightroom, or DXO, or Aperture actually adhere to Canon's recommended offset. Even if they do, there is still negative signal information that can be pulled up, and the full noise signal is there. With Nikon RAW images...all that negative (deep noise) signal is simply discarded.

I use DeepSkyStacker and PixInsight to calibrate Canon RAW files for integration into a "stack". I use a 200-frame master bias image to subtract the bias signal from each light frame before integrating it. When the bias is removed from Canon RAW files, the dynamic range jumps by almost two stops...which puts it in the same range as Nikon files...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 05:22:06 PM by jrista »

bdunbar79

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2601
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2014, 08:48:43 PM »
Congrats to Nikon for another world class sensor.

You mean Sonikon?
2 x 1DX
Big Ten, GLIAC, NCAC

IsaacImage

  • Canon AE-1
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
    • www.IsaacImage.com
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2014, 10:27:14 PM »
Actually Nikon D810 sensor are pretty impressive up to ISO 640

StudentOfLight

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 10:50:20 PM »
I believe they use a benchmarking system. When a camera sets a new benchmark then it re-baselines the camera score database. If a camera sensor sets a new benchmark in all their metrics then I believe it will get a score of 100 and bump all the other cameras down to lower scores. I might be wrong, but I think that's how it works.
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

TheGreatOwl

  • SX60 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 10:51:58 PM »
I swear I saw the Sony A7R on the top while the Nikon D800E was below... what changed? o.O

bseitz234

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
    • BrianSeitzPhoto
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 11:16:25 PM »
As DXO has given a near perfect score to the D810, they may have painted themselves into a corner. Their proprietary scale doesn't give DXO much room to heap hyperbolic praise on the next Nikon release.

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/07/24/nikon-d810-sensor-new-dxomark-leader.aspx/

<lots of tech talk clipped>

I usually skip over these threads, as they seem to rapidly devolve to drivel... but this was a very interesting post to read. Things I never really think about in the pipeline of signal processing. Thanks for that! (and thanks for getting it on the first page ;-) )
7D x2
70-200 f/2.8L - 17-55 f/2.8 IS - 10-22 f/3.5-4.5 - 85 f/1.8 - 50 f/1.4 - 28 f/1.8
580ex II - 2x 430ex II

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 11:16:25 PM »

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3097
    • View Profile
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 11:23:53 PM »
...
This really isn't a surprise. DxO and Nikon are inseparably joined at the hip.
...

Do you have any evidence of this?

All of this (everyone's comments) just sounds like more sour grapes from Canon fans because their cameras don't score as well and it is well recognised that Canon's sensors aren't as good.

Does anyone complain that the scores for Canon sensors are too high?
Or that DxO incorrectly says that Canon camera X has a better/worse sensor than Canon camera Y?

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4483
  • EOL
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 11:32:26 PM »
...
This really isn't a surprise. DxO and Nikon are inseparably joined at the hip.
...

Do you have any evidence of this?

All of this (everyone's comments) just sounds like more sour grapes from Canon fans because their cameras don't score as well and it is well recognised that Canon's sensors aren't as good.

Does anyone complain that the scores for Canon sensors are too high?
Or that DxO incorrectly says that Canon camera X has a better/worse sensor than Canon camera Y?

^--- This ---^

Isn't a surprise, either. :P  ;D Our resident Nikon foreverfanboyyayz!

BTW, Dilbert...are you ACTUALLY asking me if Nikon and DXO are "literally" joined at the hip?   ???  I mean, your asking for "evidence" of that...I've been racking my brain for a way to describe how organizations and companies have "hips", conjure up some kind of...evidence, for that...but I'm at a loss for...anything...here...... :P

canon rumors FORUM

Re: DXO uh-oh?
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 11:32:26 PM »