December 19, 2014, 08:20:54 AM

Author Topic: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?  (Read 6924 times)

wockawocka

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2014, 11:36:53 AM »
Medium format is the new full frame.

If not now in 3-5 years. It's another market to make money from and I fully expect it to be pushed to all hell.

If canon get's into bed with some pre existing lenses it's a done deal.
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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2014, 11:36:53 AM »

unfocused

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2014, 11:52:58 AM »
...
Yikes, twice in two days, Dilbert is the voice of reason. I'm starting to worry.

And what happens when you're the voice of reason? Absolutely nobody joins in to discuss what you've said.

Ha! So true. So very, very, sadly true.

Perhaps this will help: Dynamic Range, Banding, Shadow Detail, High ISO, High Megapixels, Sony Sensors, DxO.

It that doesn't get the juices flowing, nothing will.
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Stephen Melvin

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2014, 12:28:02 PM »
In order for there to be a noticeable image quality difference, you have to double the diagonal. So you'd be going from 43mm to 85mm, give or take.

I don't think the lenses would be a huge issue. They could rework some existing designs to throw a larger image circle. A "normal" lens would be 85mm. The job would be easier if they went with a mirrorless design. I doubt the 85 f/1.2 would throw an 85mm image circle, as designed, but I'll bet an 85 f/2 wouldn't be a difficult engineering challenge.

They hardest part would be the business case. a 36 x 48mm sensor would be pointless. The image quality difference would be imperceptible. You'd need a 55 x 70mm sensor to make things worth the effort. But then costs would be too high.

It seems unlikely to me.

Halfrack

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2014, 12:50:56 PM »
The EF lenses would vignette like crazy, but maybe less than expected. The T/S lenses are basically MF with large image circle. A sensor size where the most common or best EF image circles just touched the top and bottom ... 12mm away .. might be usable. Or less ambitious, touched the left and right ... 18mm away.

Except that the T/S lenses would then cease to be a T/S lens because the image circle isn't big enough.

For Canon to start its own MF line requires a whole new camera system to be designed. This could go down as:
* body with integrated sensor - to just supply a body with sensor and use existing lenses (similar approach to 645Z)
* body with integrated sensor + lenses - similar approach to the 645Z but only works with Canon lenses
* MFDB - similar approach to Leaf and Phase One and leave body/lens manufacturing to others
* MFDB + body - produce a body that takes existing MF lenses from other manufacturers
* MFDB + body + lenses - introduce a whole new ecosystem (return on investment possible?)

To look at it from a different perspective, who would buy into Canon MFDB?
* sports photographers - they would need to replace all of their current lenses with newer, bigger lenses and if they don't work from monopods/tripods, they would then need to. For newspapers, etc, this ecosystem upgrade would be costly without any gain as current model FF cameras deliver what's required. i.e. no buyers here.

* event photographers - aren't going to want to carry around bigger and bulkier cameras and lenses to gigs, concerts, etc.

* wedding photographers - some parts of the wedding (non-walk around shoots) are suitable for MF shooting but not a whole lot. Those at the top end of this market are probably already using MF but it isn't a big market. With the barrier to entry being so low, it is hard to see wedding photographers being able to justify the spend.

* studio photographers - this group of the market is where most of the MF activity lives today. It's not an incredibly big market (if unit sales are anything to go by) and Canon would need to be very disruptive and aggressive to break into it.

* hobbyists - just don't have the money required (or not enough of them that do!) to make it worthwhile. When the type of photography is examined further, the group that benefits is landscape shooters but again equipment will become larger and less fun to take with you. If you're doing animals birds (in flight especially) then you'll need to buy and wield bigger cameras and lenses which is not all that attractive.

* cat photography - obviously the docile nature of cats and their fur makes them the perfect subject for MF digital photography however cat photographers do not seem to be particularly fussy about which camera they use so there could be difficulty in convincing this group to open their wallets.

There is the rich hobbyist market - someone said one of the more common hobbies for tech focused employees is photography - so there is a growing market, and to these folks the Phase/Hass system is really a reach.  Wedding shooters can do it all with their existing gear, but there is an issue in pricing - MF is an easy way to 'increase' your rates, and there are weddings that seem to have endless money available. 

Canon would have to bring a higher performing AF system - the Phase One DF+ has 3 AF points (center and either side about 1mm away from center), while Hasselblad has a single AF point but compensates for it with TrueFocus which adjusts the focus based of how you recompose the image.

Here's your MF cat image...
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dgatwood

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2014, 02:07:17 PM »
However maintaining a constant back focus they could "region" the sensor to FF and you could use existing FF lenses.

I suspect you would have the same problems with FF lenses on an MF body that you'd have with EF-S lenses on a FF body.  They're designed under the assumption that the mirror will be a particular size, and MF would require a bigger mirror.  Judging by the very small difference between adapted lenses that hang at infinity and Canon lenses that don't, I suspect that a change in mirror height of only a millimeter or two would be enough to cause problems.

You could work around this with a specially designed teleconverter attachment that spreads and refocuses the light over the larger surface, with a mirror that doesn't flip straight up, or with a mirrorless design, of course, but each approach has disadvantages, either in IQ, battery life, or mechanical complexity.

hajiaru

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2014, 04:34:43 PM »
Nikon D900 will have 50mp

dilbert

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2014, 06:47:33 PM »
The EF lenses would vignette like crazy, but maybe less than expected. The T/S lenses are basically MF with large image circle. A sensor size where the most common or best EF image circles just touched the top and bottom ... 12mm away .. might be usable. Or less ambitious, touched the left and right ... 18mm away.
...
* hobbyists - just don't have the money required (or not enough of them that do!) to make it worthwhile. When the type of photography is examined further, the group that benefits is landscape shooters but again equipment will become larger and less fun to take with you. If you're doing animals birds (in flight especially) then you'll need to buy and wield bigger cameras and lenses which is not all that attractive.
...

There is the rich hobbyist market - someone said one of the more common hobbies for tech focused employees is photography - so there is a growing market, and to these folks the Phase/Hass system is really a reach. 
...

I wish that were true. Unfortunately those that control rent also tend to have an idea of how much money tech people earn and they usually get their money first :(

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2014, 06:47:33 PM »

jeffa4444

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2014, 07:17:36 AM »
In order for there to be a noticeable image quality difference, you have to double the diagonal. So you'd be going from 43mm to 85mm, give or take.

I don't think the lenses would be a huge issue. They could rework some existing designs to throw a larger image circle. A "normal" lens would be 85mm. The job would be easier if they went with a mirrorless design. I doubt the 85 f/1.2 would throw an 85mm image circle, as designed, but I'll bet an 85 f/2 wouldn't be a difficult engineering challenge.

They hardest part would be the business case. a 36 x 48mm sensor would be pointless. The image quality difference would be imperceptible. You'd need a 55 x 70mm sensor to make things worth the effort. But then costs would be too high.

It seems unlikely to me.

Not altogether true you have to view it as "a complete system" and you have to decide what is important a. dynamic range or b.resolution. Sony has managed to improve resolution on its CMOS sensors (include any camera with a Sony sensor) by decreasing the pixel pitch but to compensate has better controlled noise particularly dark current noise which improves apparent dynamic range i.e. that range is truly useable. On a 36X24mm sensor the current happy medium is around 5um however the cinematography favorite the Alexa is around 8um because they want better dynamic range & color slightly at the expense of resolution and that image is projected far larger than most photographs.

The relationship between pixel pitch and line pairs per mm is also crutial ideally you want to match the two so you could be doubling this between small & large pixels hence a "complete system" would aim to maintain the relationship and make improvements to other elements like processing, glass types, light wells, micro lenses, fill factors etc.

The other factor to keep in mind is MF will have less depth of field than FF so auto focus will be far more critical and for bigger lenses speed will be the challenge for AF in sports & other fast moving subjects. Bigger glass means more expensive glass and I agree logic would say do away with the mirror to shorten the back focus and reduce the size.
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Stephen Melvin

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2014, 09:59:21 AM »

In order for there to be a noticeable image quality difference, you have to double the diagonal. So you'd be going from 43mm to 85mm, give or take.

I don't think the lenses would be a huge issue. They could rework some existing designs to throw a larger image circle. A "normal" lens would be 85mm. The job would be easier if they went with a mirrorless design. I doubt the 85 f/1.2 would throw an 85mm image circle, as designed, but I'll bet an 85 f/2 wouldn't be a difficult engineering challenge.

They hardest part would be the business case. a 36 x 48mm sensor would be pointless. The image quality difference would be imperceptible. You'd need a 55 x 70mm sensor to make things worth the effort. But then costs would be too high.

It seems unlikely to me.
Not altogether true you have to view it as "a complete system" and you have to decide what is important a. dynamic range or b.resolution. Sony has managed to improve resolution on its CMOS sensors (include any camera with a Sony sensor) by decreasing the pixel pitch but to compensate has better controlled noise particularly dark current noise which improves apparent dynamic range i.e. that range is truly useable. On a 36X24mm sensor the current happy medium is around 5um however the cinematography favorite the Alexa is around 8um because they want better dynamic range & color slightly at the expense of resolution and that image is projected far larger than most photographs.

The relationship between pixel pitch and line pairs per mm is also crutial ideally you want to match the two so you could be doubling this between small & large pixels hence a "complete system" would aim to maintain the relationship and make improvements to other elements like processing, glass types, light wells, micro lenses, fill factors etc.

The other factor to keep in mind is MF will have less depth of field than FF so auto focus will be far more critical and for bigger lenses speed will be the challenge for AF in sports & other fast moving subjects. Bigger glass means more expensive glass and I agree logic would say do away with the mirror to shorten the back focus and reduce the size.

MF only has reduced DOF if the lenses are built proportionally. Currently, no MF system is capable of producing shallower DOF than a Canon system. It was true in the film days, and it's even more true now.

With the same level of technology (for example, putting a roll of Tri-X in a Nikon and another roll into a Bronica), you have to double the diagonal for there to be a noticeable difference in the image quality.

My wall is full of very large prints made from cameras from the 30D to the 5D, Mk II. I'd challenge anybody to tell which ones were made with the FF camera vs the APS cameras. There just isn't that big of a difference between APS-C and FF. I only switched because of the lenses.

moreorless

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2014, 01:53:27 PM »
MF only has reduced DOF if the lenses are built proportionally. Currently, no MF system is capable of producing shallower DOF than a Canon system. It was true in the film days, and it's even more true now.

With the same level of technology (for example, putting a roll of Tri-X in a Nikon and another roll into a Bronica), you have to double the diagonal for there to be a noticeable difference in the image quality.

My wall is full of very large prints made from cameras from the 30D to the 5D, Mk II. I'd challenge anybody to tell which ones were made with the FF camera vs the APS cameras. There just isn't that big of a difference between APS-C and FF. I only switched because of the lenses.

In this respect I actually see more reason for Nikon to go MF than Canon, at present there at a disadvantage with DOF control as there seemingly unable to create F/1.2 lenses with AF due to the smaller size of the F mount where as Canon have shown they can create F/1 lenses if needed. Going MF would give them the chance to come up with something with similar of better DOF control.

I disagree with your point about needing to double the diagonal to see an improvement in image quality but I suspect a big factor will be whether 35mm lenses can be designed easily to make the best of 50 MP+ sensors or whether MF might actually make designs easier.

scyrene

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2014, 02:25:56 PM »
In order for there to be a noticeable image quality difference, you have to double the diagonal. So you'd be going from 43mm to 85mm, give or take.

I dunno, the 645z (diagonal 55mm?) looks to have better high ISO capability than the A7s, which is about the cleanest full frame sensor at present. It won't be worth the massive price difference to most people, but it is noticeable.

I agree all this sounds unlikely though, anyway.
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lexptr

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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2014, 03:39:57 PM »
All that Cine and MF stuff is nice, but I afraid, they will lose focus on 35mm format. I.e. less products in that mortal-affordable niche, rare updates.
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Re: Canon Doing Market Research on Medium Format?
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2014, 03:39:57 PM »