October 01, 2014, 06:55:38 PM

Author Topic: Who owns the photo?  (Read 7177 times)

thepancakeman

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Who owns the photo?
« on: August 07, 2014, 12:35:38 PM »
I know we've had this discussion here before but couldn't find the old thread.  Sounds like we may get some legal clarification after this:

http://news.msn.com/offbeat/who-owns-this-monkey%E2%80%99s-selfie-1

Short version:  monkey took selfies, Wiki argues that makes it public domain.  Photographer, or more accurately in this case--camera owner--says he owns the rights.

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Who owns the photo?
« on: August 07, 2014, 12:35:38 PM »

tolusina

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 02:27:24 PM »
....Wiki argues.....
^^ Key phrase.

Remove Slater's camera from the chain of events and there are no photos.
Had Slater and his camera not been on scene, there'd be no photos.
Has B&H or Adorama ever made a single sale to any crested black macaque?
Has anyone ever sold even a single banana or peanut to a crested black macaque?

Or, had Slater kept the photos to himself, wikiwhatever wouldn't have them to publish.
Doesn't seem to me that the wikifreetards have any reasonable logic to argue with.
 
Crested black macaques don't kill people take photographs, photographers with cameras do.
 
If you set up a remote camera with a motion sensing trigger, does the trigger (if inanimate objects could) own the rights? The trigger maker? The camera maker? The owner of the camera and the trigger?
 
Back in some Olympics or another, immediately following a major event, Usain Bolt 'borrowed' a pro photographer's camera, shot a few frames, his Body English implied, "here, let me get you a few shots from a perspective not available to you, I'll give it right back". Of course I have no idea what was actually said by Bolt and the photographer. Who owns those?
 
wikigreedia, can't get their own so steal. Sounds like bullying to me.
 
Photos are Slater's.
Wikipedia, you took them and used them using flawed self interest based logic, step up, compensate, admit, apologize in that sequence and order of importance. Freeloading another's work is theft.

The only thing public domain about these photos is wikipedia's contention that they are so.
Supporting, promoting and engaging in unauthorized appropriation of another's work and/or property is not fighting against censorship, it's theft
 
Lawyers don't argue for truth, honor, justice, integrity or even Law, they argue to win.
The best debaters can argue either side of an issue and still win either way. Both conclusions cannot be correct.
The best lawyers are the best debaters, the best debaters can make the best lawyers.
 

Some exif data extracted from.....
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Macaca_nigra_self-portrait.jpg

Filename - Macaca_nigra_self-portrait.jpg
ImageWidth - 2912
ImageLength - 4368
BitsPerSample - 8 8 8
Compression - 1 (None)
PhotometricInterpretation - 2
ImageDescription - PIC BY A WILD MONKEY / DAVID SLATER / CATERS NEWS - (PICTURED: One of the photos that the monkey took with Davids camera. 1 of 2: This photo was the original photo the monkey took) - These are the chimp-ly marvellous images captured by a cheeky monkey aft
StripOffset - 31086
Orientation - Top left
SamplesPerPixel - 3
RowsPerStrip - 4368
StripByteCount - 38158848
XResolution - 72.00
YResolution - 72.00
PlanarConfiguration - 1
ResolutionUnit - Inch
Software - Adobe Photoshop CS4 Windows
DateTime - 2013:11:01 13:55:43
Artist - David J Slater
Copyright - Caters News Agency Ltd
IPTC/NAA - 20620
ExifOffset - 31236
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 1085
ExifImageHeight - 1500

Thumbnail: -
Compression - 6 (JPG)
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
JpegIFOffset - 31374
JpegIFByteCount - 6216
40 on 6

agierke

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 02:45:34 PM »
Great summary tolusina! This is my understanding of intellectual property as well. Its shameful what wikigreedia is trying to argue in this case.
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infared

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 02:47:39 PM »
I think that the black crested macaque owns the photo....I have always said anyone taking shots off an LCD screen and not a viewfinder is "monkeying and image".  Our furry friend obviously thought so, too!!!!!! He looks like Steve Huff doing another selfie!!!  ::)
(all kidding aside I think if the black crested macaque cannot own the photo, then the photographer who owns the camera certainly does. Right???).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 02:49:22 PM by infared »
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Orangutan

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 03:10:54 PM »
<IANAL>
If you give paints, paintbrush and canvas to an elephant do you own the resulting painting or does the elephant's owner own the painting?  It was the macaque's use of the camera that was transformative.  Since animals are generally considered property, it seems likely the macaque's owners own the photos.
</IANAL>

tolusina

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 03:26:41 PM »
Some more.....

The MSN article linked above states in part....
"......When a monkey commandeered a nature photographer’s camera on a small Indonesian island a few years ago, the results were extraordinary....."
- - -
wikimedia's page at http://transparency.wikimedia.org/content.html
states in part......
“.......A photographer left his camera unattended in a national park in North Sulawesi, Indonesia........ “
- - -
David J Slater's website,
http://www.djsphotography.co.uk/Tropical%20Forests/Sulawesi%20Macaques.htm
remember, he was the guy that was there, states in part....


"…...So I put my camera on a tripod with a very wide angle lens, settings configured such as predictive autofocus, motorwind, even a flashgun, to give me a chance of a facial close up if they were to approach again for a play.  I duly moved away and bingo, they moved in, fingering the toy, pressing the buttons and fingering the lens.  I was then to witness one of the funniest things ever as they grinned, grimaced and bared teeth at themselves in the reflection of the large glassy lens. …..
…....They played with the camera until of course some images were inevitably taken!  I had one hand on the tripod when this was going on......"


- - -
Slater's version does not sound at all like MSN's “commandeered”, nor wikimedia's “ unattended”.
 
 
... macaque's owners....
The macaque is wild, owns its own self.
 
---
Hey Slater!!
Should you happen to stumble on this, GREAT PHOTOS!!

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Orangutan

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 03:41:14 PM »
Slater's version does not sound at all like MSN's “commandeered”, nor wikimedia's “ unattended”.
Depending on Indonesian law, that may be irrelevant.  Even if it was intentional, the critter framed and clicked.   For example, consider a "free" photo booth.  You set it up and people go inside and take photos of themselves.  Does the owner of the photo booth own those?  Not likely.  Setting up the gear may be irrelevant; it's probably a question of who frames the shot.  In this case, it was the critter.
 
Quote
... macaque's owners....
The macaque is wild, owns its own self.
In those cases, animals are generally presumed to be owned by the sovereign government, so Indonesia likely owns the photos.  In the absence of an international treaty, it seems likely they'll win the case in an Indonesian court.

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 03:41:14 PM »

Lurker

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 03:57:18 PM »
The one pressing the shutter button owns the photo, it is their creative property.

Orangutan

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 04:58:46 PM »
The one pressing the shutter button owns the photo, it is their creative property.

So if you set up a shot on tripod, and your assistant does nothing more than press the button on a wireless shutter release (and doesn't even look through the viewfinder) then the assistant owns the shot?  I find that very hard to believe.

pablo

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 05:02:27 PM »
I do timelapse videos.   I press the timer start button once to start it and once to stop it.

Do I own frame 1 of the finished video and the timer owns the remaining 249 of a 10s sequence?


alfredo

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 05:06:52 PM »
There's a difference between the author of the photo, and the copyright holder.

When you write software for a software company, you, the individual, are the author, but the company pays you to do the job, and they hold the copyright on the software you write.

Of the several cases cited in this thread, I think making the distinction between author and copyright holder helps cleaning up the scenario.

We may argue whether the monkey or the photographer are the author of the photo, but since the monkey has no will of creative production, nor it can legally hold copyright, the creative action of setting up the environment makes the copyright belong to the photographer.

If the button was triggered by a motion sensor, I'd say that both author and copyright holder are the photographer (as the motion sensor is inanimate).

In the "Bolt borrowing a camera" case, Bolt is certainly the author. One may dispute on the copyright: the camera owner may have said: "I'm borrowing you the camera to do the (unpaid) job of taking a picture, in return of using my camera, you'll transfer to me the copyright of the work you'll produce". Or, the photographer may just have decided to give up on the copyright.

For the photo booth case, again, the customer pays a fee to the machine, to hold the copyright of the result. When you go to a professional photographer, it's up to you to negotiate who holds the copyright on the session pictures. Typically prices are much higher if the customer goes away with the copyright, because it means the photographer won't be able to resell those pictures.

Interesting reading: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#HowIGetCopyright

I'm a big open source fan, and even more I appreciate Wikipedia, but I'd say this time they went a bit too eager.

alfredo

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 05:13:18 PM »
So if you set up a shot on tripod, and your assistant does nothing more than press the button on a wireless shutter release (and doesn't even look through the viewfinder) then the assistant owns the shot?  I find that very hard to believe.

I'd say both the photographer and the assistant are co-authors of the photo (in that order). The photographer holds the copyright; the assistant was paid to do the job, transferring her share of the copyright to the photographer, as part of the contract.

RGF

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 05:16:26 PM »
<IANAL>
If you give paints, paintbrush and canvas to an elephant do you own the resulting painting or does the elephant's owner own the painting?  It was the macaque's use of the camera that was transformative.  Since animals are generally considered property, it seems likely the macaque's owners own the photos.
</IANAL>

Agree, from a non-lawyer, I would vote for the owner of the animal owns the picture. 


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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 05:16:26 PM »

anthonyd

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2014, 05:25:13 PM »
The one pressing the shutter button owns the photo, it is their creative property.

So if you set up a shot on tripod, and your assistant does nothing more than press the button on a wireless shutter release (and doesn't even look through the viewfinder) then the assistant owns the shot?  I find that very hard to believe.

You have an assistant for pressing the button on a wireless release? wow you must be a busy photog. :-D

Orangutan

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 05:26:52 PM »
The one pressing the shutter button owns the photo, it is their creative property.

So if you set up a shot on tripod, and your assistant does nothing more than press the button on a wireless shutter release (and doesn't even look through the viewfinder) then the assistant owns the shot?  I find that very hard to believe.

You have an assistant for pressing the button on a wireless release? wow you must be a busy photog. :-D

 :D

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Re: Who owns the photo?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 05:26:52 PM »