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Author Topic: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3  (Read 132631 times)

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2014, 04:24:56 AM »
Im not an AF expert as i rarely use anything other then the center AF point in one shot mode. :) and 40% of the time i focus manually.

I think the 5D MK3 AF is very capable and i don´t know if the D800 AF is worse.

But i think even when it´s worse, it doesn´t make a big difference for the majority of shooter who lust for a D800 sensor in a Canon body.

As allround camera the Canon 5D MK3 is sure more capable.
But that´s Pickup vs. Sportscar talk again.

Again, that's your opinion.

You say the 5D3's AF is very capable, and you don't know if the D800's is worse? I'm telling you that from my perspective, the D800 is not only not worse, it's better. B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame with anywhere near the accuracy & ability with which the D800, for example, will.

So, why is the 5D3 all-round more capable?

From my perspective, having used the 5D3 for the past few years (and Canon all my life, so I'm very familiar with their tech), it has a worse sensor than the D800 (far worse for some of my use-cases), and its AF is not nearly as capable for my wedding/shallow DOF (fast prime) work b/c it doesn't track subjects across the frame. Meaning I have to manually select the appropriate AF point when I can't focus & recompose (b/c of the focus plane shift), and I don't have the ability to rely on the camera to stay on what I want focused (the eye of a baby, for example) as my subject moves around or I move/re-compose.

That last bit is relevant to running brides, moving babies, and sports photography where you want to decouple the composition from AF (that is, you don't want to find yourself forced to constrain your composition simply b/c you don't have time to move your AF point - forcing you to keep your framing such that the subject of interest is underneath the selected AF point).

At least the 1D X took a stab at closing the gap between Canon & Nikon in terms of this type of tracking when it introduced iTR which worked in conjunction with the metering sensor. But it's the only Canon - to date - to have this feature, and in my tests it does not keep up as well as the Nikon D800/D4/D810, etc. Which is to be expected for any 1st generation tech.

And for those who talk about high ISO DR, the D800 still doesn't fare *worse*; its DR just falls back down to Canon 5D3 levels. And if you know how to, you can actually have the D800 retain far more DR at higher ISOs by simply underexposing by lowering your ISO, then boosting your exposure selectively in post to get your brightness back up to where it would've been with the proper 'hardware-level' ISO. So even there, it has the potential to have more DR under situations requiring higher ISO shooting - if you shoot Raw.

In fact, really the only thing I miss about the 5D3 are its excellent cross-type AF points all over the frame - which are far less fallible to hunting/failing than non-cross-type.

So before making blanket statements like 'the Canon 5D3 is sure more capable'... perhaps think twice. I guess none of my AF talk matters to you if you focus manually 40% of the time & use the center point the rest of the time. But many professionals stress the camera far more than that, and for them it's going to come down to which camera has the right technologies that allows the camera to 'get out of the way' the most.

And for them, it's not as clear cut as 'the 5D3 is more capable'. I assure you, for my work, it's exactly the opposite. And I didn't even know until I spent enough time with Nikon.

And I'm not blind to Nikon's issues either. Lack of more cross-type AF points and radio-controlled flash are rather egregious, and I'll inevitably have some glass envy. But, in the end, the Nikon D810 'gets out of the way' the most. And its grip is finally beefy enough that I can hold the camera properly :)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 11:48:54 PM by sarangiman »

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2014, 04:24:56 AM »

Keith_Reeder

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2014, 06:04:23 AM »
B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame, while the D800 will do so marvelously.

User error.

ULFULFSEN

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2014, 06:05:37 AM »
I let Neuro explain why the 5D MK3 AF is better.
As i wrote i can not say if that is true or not, but i believed him on that. :)

But there are other things that makes me believe the 5D Mk3 is overall the better camera (by a small margin). For shooters who do all kind stuff it´s imo the better choice. That´s why i wrote "allround" camera.

Unfortunatly i only have 4-5 minutes time when i come here (im at work) so i can´t write novels like most of you guys to explain that more.



« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 06:08:09 AM by ULFULFSEN »

RLPhoto

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2014, 08:59:28 AM »
B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame, while the D800 will do so marvelously.

User error.
+1 pretty much. RTFM.

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2014, 12:44:19 PM »
B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame, while the D800 will do so marvelously.

User error.
+1 pretty much. RTFM.

Nope. Not user error.

The 5D3 only has the 'capability' to track across the frame using depth information from the AF sensor, which might work for subjects that don't change depth much (e.g. Birds), but doesn't even remotely work for erratically moving subjects that change significant distance from camera (the case when shooting with wide angle fast primes, for example). In other words: doesn't work AFAIC.

Let me put it this way: if the 5D3 were perfectly capable at this, why would Canon have released iTR in the 1D X? Do any of you understand the idea behind using the metering sensor for subject recognition? Or the entire principle behind Sony SLT?

You know what's better than RTFM? Using the freaking camera. It's quite clear none of you responding have actually compared Nikon's latest 3D AF tracking to Canon's, so the authoritative voices with which you speak are rather comical.

But as someone else stated, perhaps that's exactly what makes CanonRumors so entertaining.

RLPhoto

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2014, 06:54:57 PM »
B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame, while the D800 will do so marvelously.

User error.
+1 pretty much. RTFM.

Nope. Not user error.

The 5D3 only has the 'capability' to track across the frame using depth information from the AF sensor, which might work for subjects that don't change depth much (e.g. Birds), but doesn't even remotely work for erratically moving subjects that change significant distance from camera (the case when shooting with wide angle fast primes, for example). In other words: doesn't work AFAIC.

Let me put it this way: if the 5D3 were perfectly capable at this, why would Canon have released iTR in the 1D X? Do any of you understand the idea behind using the metering sensor for subject recognition? Or the entire principle behind Sony SLT?

You know what's better than RTFM? Using the freaking camera. It's quite clear none of you responding have actually compared Nikon's latest 3D AF tracking to Canon's, so the authoritative voices with which you speak are rather comical.

But as someone else stated, perhaps that's exactly what makes CanonRumors so entertaining.
Sounds like your upset for your shortcomings of using the equipment and blaming the camera. The 5D3s AF is superb and there are thousands of users who prove you otherwise.

Please RTFM on how to setup your 5D3.

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2014, 07:29:49 PM »
Well, the 5D III has a number of settings in it's AF firmware that let you configure how it's AF system responds. Canon cameras are well known, at least have been since the 1D IV and 7D, to track subjects coming right at you. There is also a dedicated AF preset explicitly designed for tracking "erratic" subjects (that's even what it says, it uses that exact word.) I've photographed birds on a few occasions when they were flying right at me, and it has maintained the lock (I think pretty much all of those were 7D...I haven't had the opportunity to try with the 5D III yet.)

Trust me I know this. I've tried all combinations, changing individual settings within certain use-cases.

Here's the thing: I really don't think you're going to get it until you've actually tried 3D tracking on a D800/810 vs 5D3 side-by-side.

I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding this: the 5D3 literally doesn't have the hardware to accurately follow subjects *around the frame* accurately. Not compared to the competition, anyway. It doesn't have a dedicated RGB sensor (which, btw, is also used for spot-metering linked to AF point anywhere in the frame). It uses depth information from its AF system only, and that just doesn't (and cannot, if you think about if for a minute) work as well as dedicated sensor in practice. The 1D X does, although in my experience it doesn't actually perform as well as, say, the D810. It's certainly worlds above the 5D3, though, for subject tracking.

I don't think you need "3D" metering linked in with the AF unit to achieve this....however Canon does it, they know the boundaries of your subject, where the separation between subject contrast edges are, so they still seem to be able to track subjects that are moving towards you. I also remember reading a couple articles by sports photographers early on after the 1D X and 5D III were released stating how much they loved the 61pt AF system system and it's ability to maintain a lock on say a basket ball or soccer player running down the field towards them.

'However Canon does it' clearly indicates you're not sure what's actually going on.

Furthermore, anecdotes of how well it worked for one use-case doesn't rule out how much better a different system could work for that, or other, use-cases.

If you check the Birds in Flight gallery forum here on CR, you'll find quite a number of bird shots where the bird is moving towards the photographer...not necessarily always "down the barrel", which would be the most extreme case of that...but definitely where the subject is moving towards the photographer.

If you haven't been able to get this to work, then I would first look into how the camera was configured. Because it should most definitely be possible. I was doing it with the rather jittery 7D 19pt AF system years ago...so I know it's possible.

Again, I'm not talking about birds in flight, nor even sports - neither of which stress AF tracking as much as moving babies and running brides while you actively recompose your shot. This essentially entails erratic movement in 3 dimensions. For the last time, I'm specifically talking about both z-depth tracking as well as tracking across the 2D X-Y plane. And specifically with respect to the latter, the 5D3 is significantly behind and/or completely incapable in comparison to a 1D X or any pro-level Nikon.

This shouldn't be difficult to accept. There's a reason it's in the 1D X, and purported to be in the 7D II as well. But if you want to see a great implementation of it - just try a D810. Seriously, just try it. Go to a camera store, and slap some 24/1.4 primes on some bodies. Put a 5D3 in 'auto 65 point selection' mode with AI servo, a 1D X in the same mode but w/ iTR engaged, and a D810 with 3D AF tracking mode engaged. Start on a subject in the center (or whatever focus point you've chosen), then move the camera around wildly (or have the subject dance/run around if you want/can). Be amazed at what how the camera can swiftly move the AF point to stay on the subject. Or not.

I'm clearly not going to get through to you via text, but I guarantee if you pick up a D810 and try it you'll be amazed. Every single person I've showed this to (including Nikon users who just didn't know this mode existed) have looked at me with a 'wow' expression on their faces exclaiming 'I had no idea; this literally changes the way I can shoot and what I can potentially do.'

Actually, this is starting to get strangely reminiscent of the DR debate years ago... where one side just doesn't want to accept that their camera can't possibly not do something another camera can!

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2014, 07:29:49 PM »

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2014, 07:37:19 PM »
Sounds like your upset for your shortcomings of using the equipment and blaming the camera. The 5D3s AF is superb and there are thousands of users who prove you otherwise.

Please RTFM on how to setup your 5D3.

Please use iTR on a 1D X or 3D AF tracking on a Nikon, then come back and attempt to imply I don't know what I'm talking about.

This is about you not understanding my point/use-case, not about me not understanding the camera I've owned and used and stressed and tested for years.

Clearly you don't even understand how subject tracking on the 5D3 vs the 1D X/Nikons work. So who is it again then that needs to be reading manuals/white papers? Or perhaps just UTFC (using the freaking cameras)?

Not that I should even be engaging with someone who used some of the most illogical arguments to counter the reality of the DR differences between Canon & the D800 years ago.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 07:40:02 PM by sarangiman »

Dylan777

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2014, 08:12:32 PM »
B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame, while the D800 will do so marvelously.

What was the subject and shooting condition like? How did set your camera?

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2014, 08:16:26 PM »
Also, don't misquote me. I didn't say the 5D3 AF system is incapable - my hit rate went up by a staggering amount when I went from the 5D2 to the 5D3. Simply b/c I could actually use the off-center AF points for my shallow DOF photography.

What I'm saying is that proper subject tracking with a dedicated hardware RGB sensor leads to a similarly staggering increase in ability to capture certain moments b/c I don't have to manually select the AF point.

I'm telling you the 5D3's subject tracking doesn't work well enough for me, when compared to the alternatives available (dedicated RGB metering sensor, or Sony's SLT system which lets the imaging sensor do the hard work of subject tracking).

What, exactly, are you arguing RLPhoto? That there's no point to having a dedicated sensor for tracking that can take into account more information than just depth + whether or not an object at a certain depth left one AF point and went to another? That just having the latter imperfect & rather convoluted method of subject tracking is good enough? If so, good enough for who? You?

Certainly not for me, since I'm actually aware of & have used the alternatives extensively (have you?). And not for anyone who values 3D tracking/iTR/SLT systems, nor the guys who designed those systems to begin with.

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2014, 08:21:30 PM »
B/c the 5D3 simply won't track across the frame, while the D800 will do so marvelously.

What was the subject and shooting condition like? How did set your camera?
I've already clarified these in my previous posts. This is getting pointless. I'll just have to create videos to demonstrate my point.

Still not sure why it's so hard to comprehend the 5D3's lack of dedicated subject tracking via a separate image-like sensor. The same sensor that, e.g., does face-detection weighted metering.

That's a spec, not an opinion.

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2014, 08:56:29 PM »
Perhaps I need to clarify my initial statement:

The 5D3 might start off OK following a subject, but it quickly gets confused - as it must with so little information - as soon as the subject changes position along 3 axes. How would *you* design an algorithm to track a subject based off only phase information from 61 AF points? And how reliable and tenacious do you think it'd be compared to a system that has ~100,000 pixels of color information to help subject recognition?

That's the whole point of the RGB sensor - to acquire more information to stick to the original subject. And the imaging sensor in Sony SLT designs has even more potential to stick to the subject (whether or not this leads to better actual performance is another story entirely).

Or the imaging sensor in mirrorless ILCs - any of you ever try subject tracking on better, modern mirrorless ILCs? The tracking itself will give almost any DSLR a run for its money - but the reality is the DSLR will often still perform (significantly) better b/c of the dedicated PDAF system (which mirrorless ILCs lack).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:00:48 PM by sarangiman »

dtaylor

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2014, 09:25:02 PM »
Again, I'm not talking about birds in flight, nor even sports - neither of which stress AF tracking as much as moving babies and running brides while you actively recompose your shot.

Haven't had a problem with either since the 7D. Maybe RTFM?  ;D

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2014, 09:25:02 PM »

DominoDude

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2014, 09:26:30 PM »
Hmm, my thoughts about how a sensor system should behave is not necessarily about acquiring more information, but about acquiring correct and vital information and then draw the right conclusions from them.

I must have been extremely lucky earlier this year when I did a pray and spray on a Black-crowned Night Heron, directly after it took off from its day quarters. A short burst (2-3 shots), followed by long one. In all 21 shots, of which 18 had the entire bird in frame, 12 with decent focus. The birds course of flight was much like the shape of a question mark while passing me by during this. It even managed to fly behind a few branches on a tree between us. And while I did this tracking of the Heron I turned, dipped down to my knees and leaned back.
I can't possible have done that with my ancient 7D with such an outdated AF tracking system, right? We should praise the Heron for its ability to take off and fly at a constant speed, and at a constant distance while making sure it overlapped perfectly with my focus point in the view finder.

sarangiman

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2014, 09:31:44 PM »
Again, I'm not talking about birds in flight, nor even sports - neither of which stress AF tracking as much as moving babies and running brides while you actively recompose your shot.

Haven't had a problem with either since the 7D. Maybe RTFM?  ;D

I didn't say it *couldn't* do either. I said there are other cameras that do it much better.

Perhaps you'd do wise to UTFC (use those freaking cameras).

And anyone saying they've never missed an action shot at 24/1.4 or 35/1.4 or 85/1.2 b/c of focus is clearly lying.

Has anyone here making these idiotic comments actually used iTR, or 3D tracking, or the A77 II Lock-on AF? And then found it to offer no benefit over the 5D3/7D AF tracking in a variety of AF tracking scenarios?

Can either of you answer this simple question?

Just b/c your photography doesn't stress your system, doesn't mean that generalizes to all users. And if any of you claim 100% hit-rate with focus and focus tracking, you're flagrantly lying. No camera can claim that.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:41:28 PM by sarangiman »

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2014, 09:31:44 PM »