December 21, 2014, 09:41:19 AM

Author Topic: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3  (Read 33939 times)

raptor3x

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2014, 12:26:53 PM »
Someone asked about performance at ISO 12800, he said he'd post samples but that the D810 was better...yet he didn't post samples.  No follow through, or he couldn't back up his statement with images?
To be fair, the DPReview comparison between the 5D3 and the D810 backs this up.

Except that DPR 'testing' is based on default ACR conversions, and like most 'high ISO tests' they are not 'low light tests' because they're shot in bright light with a very fast shutter, which has significant implications for the relative noise contributions.

Good point, I can't speak to the ACR conversion, but if you click on the lightbulb in that comparison they also have a low light version of the test that's a bit more realistic.  I'm not sure it changes the conclusion though as the D810 still looks just a little worse than the 6D at print sizes.  Obviously 100% is a completely different story with the 5D3 and D810 being pretty much equal and the 6D being ~2/3rd stop better.
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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2014, 12:26:53 PM »

Jackson_Bill

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2014, 01:05:10 PM »
Based on the RAW files that he posted, we know that he did the AF Servo test on the Canon using Spot AF...

Interesting.  Presumably, he doesn't know that Canon recommends against using Spot AF with moving subjects.

Off on a tangent but...
That's only because the spot AF is harder to hold on the moving target, not because of any inherent problem with the AF, isn't it?

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2014, 01:37:12 PM »


Yup, Face-detect metering in viewfinder mode. It was there in D800 too and that was 2 years ago!
It's in the 1D X...

Cool! In addition to non-flash portraits, does the 1DX face-det metering work with e-TTL flash as well? (just curious, since D800 & D4 claim to do that)
Not sure, and I don't think it's documented anywhere, but I would imagine so.  To be perfectly clear - Canon's documentation on the 1D X feature that does this is extremely limited.  All we really know for sure is that it's a 100,000 pixel sensor that detects colors and faces and uses that information for metering and motion in normal viewfinder/ phase-detect AF mode.  What I know from actual use is that it works extremely well for portraits and even wildlife.

I would really appreciate it if u can test it out mackguyver, since u have the 1DX.
Just put a ettl flash on and shoot a bride (or anyone in white clothing with white/light background)
with FEC set to zero with face-det turned on.  If 1DX has this feature, it should correctly expo the face while keeping the white gown really bright.
Test it the other way, hv the model wear black clothing with a dark background. Shoot it again using the
same setting.  If 1DX has this feature, it should correctly expo the face while keeping the dark clothing really dark.  All done outside of live view.
I am just vy curious.  Thanks!




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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2014, 01:48:28 PM »


Yup, Face-detect metering in viewfinder mode. It was there in D800 too and that was 2 years ago!
It's in the 1D X...

Cool! In addition to non-flash portraits, does the 1DX face-det metering work with e-TTL flash as well? (just curious, since D800 & D4 claim to do that)
Not sure, and I don't think it's documented anywhere, but I would imagine so.  To be perfectly clear - Canon's documentation on the 1D X feature that does this is extremely limited.  All we really know for sure is that it's a 100,000 pixel sensor that detects colors and faces and uses that information for metering and motion in normal viewfinder/ phase-detect AF mode.  What I know from actual use is that it works extremely well for portraits and even wildlife.

I would really appreciate it if u can test it out mackguyver, since u have the 1DX.
Just put a ettl flash on and shoot a bride (or anyone in white clothing with white/light background)
with FEC set to zero with face-det turned on.  If 1DX has this feature, it should correctly expo the face while keeping the white gown really bright.
Test it the other way, hv the model wear black clothing with a dark background. Shoot it again using the
same setting.  If 1DX has this feature, it should correctly expo the face while keeping the dark clothing really dark.  All done outside of live view.
I am just vy curious.  Thanks!
Sure, I can do that.  I'll be taking some portraits tomorrow night and will try it with the setting on and off to see if it makes any difference.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2014, 02:44:10 PM »
Disagree if you may, but give the man his due.

No. And here's why.

Again (Dilbert), nobody argues that the Noink doesn't have better DR. But - and it's a big "but" - his test has used a single converter (Lightroom) which, good as it is in many respects, does not allow you to pull up Canon shadows cleanly the way that some other converters can.

DPP, for example, has an almost miraculous ability to "add DR" in the shadows compared to Lr; Optics Pro is good too, albeit not as good as it could be in reaching into just the shadows.

I think it's an illusion. First, it doesn't save highlights as well. Second, maybe it bands a bit less and is a bit less sloppy in shadows but the 'detail' also seems to be very smeary so I don't really see it as a gain compared to the others and it also has a limited slider that can sometimes trick you into thinking you pulled up as much as the others when you didn't.

Quote
Capture One 7 is also vey capable.
The point is that the supposed huge gulf between these cameras can be significantly narrowed simply an by intelligent choice of converter.

Not what I've seen from people comparing having used various converters.

Quote
That this test used a converter which does not favour Canon shadows (at x00% view, anyway - FFS) tells you far more about the converter than it does about the camera, and for a supposedly pro tester/photographer to utterly ignore the significance of choice of converter in getting the best out of a camera's files, is risible.

And what of the DxO test that doesn't use any converter at all but just tests the RAW file for each? It shows the same considerable difference.





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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2014, 02:47:14 PM »

The 'unfairness' is the biased comparison in the linked video.  Comparing only at ISO 100, that smells like DxO's BS (but then, lots of people – including some pros – seem to like that smell). 

I think next time you should watch the video more closely - Most of the time Phony was shooting at ISO 64. 

Portrait shots etc Canon and ISO 100 and Nikon at ISO 64.

If he wanted a real honest comparison, having ISO the same might have helped.  Never saw any clips of the "Sportrait" shots from the canon side, but notices settings were 1/1000 F/2.8 and Auto ISO.  Would have been interesting to see comparison with a PROPER AF set up as well as Shutter Priority mode and ISO 100

But from what I was seeing, a lot of times Nikon was set at ISO 64

If his goal is to test the best you can do under tripod usage or great lighting why is that not fair? Why would it be fair to penalize the D810 just because the 5D3 doesn't do ISO100?

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2014, 03:04:08 PM »
Can we start doing fun competitions?  One raw image... edit using your normal technique and programs.. and we can view on a winner?  I'll lose... but someone has to finish in second place.
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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2014, 03:04:08 PM »

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2014, 04:15:37 PM »


Yup, Face-detect metering in viewfinder mode. It was there in D800 too and that was 2 years ago!
It's in the 1D X...

Cool! In addition to non-flash portraits, does the 1DX face-det metering work with e-TTL flash as well? (just curious, since D800 & D4 claim to do that)
Not sure, and I don't think it's documented anywhere, but I would imagine so.  To be perfectly clear - Canon's documentation on the 1D X feature that does this is extremely limited.  All we really know for sure is that it's a 100,000 pixel sensor that detects colors and faces and uses that information for metering and motion in normal viewfinder/ phase-detect AF mode.  What I know from actual use is that it works extremely well for portraits and even wildlife.

I would really appreciate it if u can test it out mackguyver, since u have the 1DX.
Just put a ettl flash on and shoot a bride (or anyone in white clothing with white/light background)
with FEC set to zero with face-det turned on.  If 1DX has this feature, it should correctly expo the face while keeping the white gown really bright.
Test it the other way, hv the model wear black clothing with a dark background. Shoot it again using the
same setting.  If 1DX has this feature, it should correctly expo the face while keeping the dark clothing really dark.  All done outside of live view.
I am just vy curious.  Thanks!
Sure, I can do that.  I'll be taking some portraits tomorrow night and will try it with the setting on and off to see if it makes any difference.

Thanks mackguyver!

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2014, 04:16:27 PM »
Can we start doing fun competitions?  One raw image... edit using your normal technique and programs.. and we can view on a winner?  I'll lose... but someone has to finish in second place.
That sounds fun to me, but only if we use insanely good or horrendously bad .CR2 files   I wonder if a 1D X .CR2 file will zip to 5MB.  If not, I'm sure one of my old 450D files might work...  Maybe I'll dig up a photo I've never shared later tonight and let everyone loose on it.

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2014, 02:56:20 AM »
Eagerly awaiting the pics.  :D

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2014, 04:56:31 AM »

If his goal is to test the best you can do under tripod usage or great lighting why is that not fair? Why would it be fair to penalize the D810 just because the 5D3 doesn't do ISO100?

Because if you want to compare quality of images, you need to compare at same settings

For one comparing a new camera to a two year old camera, one would hope there were large improvements... I mean quickly... lets takes some bets... Will the 7DMKII out perform the 7D?  How about the 5DMKII vs the 5DMKIII

Side by side comparison of a Nikon 8XXD to a Canon 5D MKIII are difficult because of image size, zooming in or compressing, either way the image has changed.

But too my point.  If you want to look at image to image, you need to use the same settings. 

If the answer is that at 100 the images have negligible difference, but the 8XXd has Iso 64 and the extra ISO helps with noise and quality, then that says two different things.

As far as tracking, and AF hits in burst.... I would have much preferred to see real action in real environments, such as shooting at F/5.6 or F/8 at ISO 1200 at 1/1000 or faster.  This also required that camera is set up properly, which it is clear it was not. 

What I don't know is if Tony Northrup is ignorant or dishonest.  Did he not know how to set up the camera to get proper AF tracking, or did he deliberately shoot it at a non-optimal setting.

I believe he made a comment about "If you are a professional..." or something like that... Seems to me a professional would either KNOW, or if they are getting results that are less than they expect, they research

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2014, 07:00:52 AM »
Get the feeling it's not easy to make money with photography these days. Those who shoot as their main job seem to drive Yugos from what I see personally and those who shoot AND sell products and build up a giant web presence and following seem to live in nice homes in La Jolla, CA or the fancy part of CT  ;D.
It's definitely tough out there for all but the very top photographers, at least in terms of making six figures, plus.  I am in awe of people who do nothing but product reviews and seem to live quite well in terms of farms, horses, and trips to tropical islands, not to mention any names...but I guess a percent or two of big white purchases adds up :)

The reality is that stock is all but dead and that was a huge source of income in the past.  It's been supplanted by workshops, books, videos, and affiliate links. 

They say that if you want to make money from photography, you need to teach photography, not do photography.  Scott Kelby has done rather well with this model.
+1
I agree…some of these people do very well financially.  I am always amazed at some of the places that people, such as Trey Ratcliff, have been to,…sometimes multiple times…places I will never get to…
I find Trey Radcliffe amazing. I was fascinated when I first saw his HDR work. Amazed him giving away his secrets for free. He's probably improved it in the meantime but the original tutorial didn't tell all his secrets. When I look at his work now it doesn't seen so good . Often OTT, he often doesn't make the best of the amazing locations. But that's what's still amazing about him. He's been to amazing places on the back of his website. He's also like a sage / guru on all types of subjects like the best camera , mirror less cameras, lecturing at google and other places.
All because he was first and has stayed top of the HDR pile.  He tells people how he became successful and to follow their photographic dreams. It's a bit like a pyramid scheme. There is very little room at the top. You can't repeat Treys success as the field is full. You have to find a photography type so far unexplored. I guess 3D photography and physically going to another planet are left. But you never know. I never saw HDR coming. Trey did though and I tip my hat to him. I hope he is enjoying his fame and wealth.
On the subject of D810 and 5D III . I've never used the Nikon but the 5DIII has been a great camera for me. It's a great all rounder. Never let's me down. Very high quality images. Nikon make a great camera too so we are all blessed to live in this era. The gear is no longer the excuse not to take great photos. Maybe it's easier to blame the gear than the technique or imagination.

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2014, 10:14:06 AM »


I agree i couldn't  imagine paying money to watch their 9 hours of video they are peddling at the end!

on the cameras one thing that really interests me is the face detect metering the d810 had man that awesome i seriously hope canon do something similar.

Yup, Face-detect metering in viewfinder mode. It was there in D800 too and that was 2 years ago!
It's in the 1D X...

More or less from name but you can't compare both AF system one on one.

Auto Area AF on Nikon is the only mode in which face detection is applied. It will recognize if there is a face in the photo, and if that is the case then priority will be applied to that face for auto-focus. So the D800 will decide in that case to follow that face over the 51 AF points. The AF system simply gives priority to faces that it detects within the AF region and selects the closest focus point to the face. There is no indication that the camera is using Face Recognition, it simply does it.

3D tracking AF mode on Nikon from the other hand will measure the colors in the surrounding focus point (start point) so that the AF system can track the movement afterwards. Nikon indicates that this mode is best used for moves erratically from side to side. Also here all the 51 points are used and one start point is fixed.

The iTR AF option on the 1Dx can be used on the 61 point and on the Zone AF selection. Functionality is also based on color and face detection. On 1Dx it is possible to disable the iTr function. The level of erratically moves can be modified.

So, iTr has a lot of resemblance with 3D tracking as they both work on color detection around the area of the first selected AF point. The 1Dx can do this also on zone AF and can switch this option off. The auto area AF of Nikon with the fixed face detection might be beautiful, but as mentioned you have no control on it.

My 2 most AF modes are spot (portrait) and point expansion with 4 points (sport, wildlife). I only use 61 points when I want to follow a bird in the flight and when I have the sky as background. So even the iTr on a 1Dx is hardly used in my case because of the lower AF speeds of the zone and 61 points AF compared to the other methods.

It's very difficult to compare total different AF systems with each other. The Canon AF system of the 5D3 and the 1Dx is even now, much more advanced then the Nikon D4s or the D810. What Northrup want to tell us that the D810 has a higher keeper rate compared to the 5D3 is his opinion, but I'm sure he is not really aware then of all the possibilities of the much more advanced AF of the 5D3.
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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2014, 10:14:06 AM »

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2014, 05:07:20 AM »
It's very difficult to compare total different AF systems with each other. The Canon AF system of the 5D3 and the 1Dx is even now, much more advanced then the Nikon D4s or the D810. What Northrup want to tell us that the D810 has a higher keeper rate compared to the 5D3 is his opinion, but I'm sure he is not really aware then of all the possibilities of the much more advanced AF of the 5D3.

It's your opinion that the AF system of the 5D3 is more advanced than what the Nikon D4s & D810 offer.

It's my opinion that Nikon's is far more more advanced in practice. Simply b/c of the 91k pixel RGB metering sensor for subject tracking.

Our difference in opinion probably boils down to you not caring about iTR on Canon, or Nikon's analog: 3D tracking. (considering you said: "So even the iTr on a 1Dx is hardly used in my case because of the lower AF speeds of the zone and 61 points AF compared to the other methods.")

Nikon's 3D AF tracking enables me to capture shots I wouldn't have dreamt of catching with my 5D3. Using fast f/1.4 wider primes (24mm and 35mm), I can always use the center point to initiate tracking, and then keep that subject in focus even after recomposition or the subject moving (which babies & running brides tend to do a lot). My hit rate for this type of photography shot up dramatically going from a 5D3 to a D810. And I wonder how many people actually realize that 3D AF tracking can be used for this to such great benefit. The 91k-pixel sensor does remarkably well in this regard of recognizing, say, an eye & sticking with it - it's so good sometimes, and so fast at shifting the AF point, that sometimes it feels like the camera is using the accelerometer data to measure my hand movements in order to shift the AF point (obviously, this isn't actually the case)!

It's funny - the term '3D' here is almost misleading, as it implies depth. Well, AF in general (in AF-C or Servo modes) tracks depth by default. The point of '3D' here is that it also tracks across the two dimensions of the frame; hence 2D + depth = 3D. But, at first, it seems counterintuitive, if you see what I mean - it's the 3D mode that tracks across the 2D plane, and all the other modes that automatically track depth (in AF-C/Servo).

Now, there are some other advanced features Canon offers - 5 high sensitivity dual cross-type points in the center with wider baselines, more cross-type points on the sides, and spot AF. Of these, I miss the cross-type points on the sides the most. I have yet to see benefits of the high sensitivity points, and spot AF, for my work. I'd love to quantify how useful these can be, especially the high sensitive wider baseline points for low light work. Roger Cicala's work showed no real difference in precision between the modern Nikon and Canon AF systems, but I believe that was in good light.

The 1Dx offered *the potential* to combine all those pluses of the Canon AF system with the '3D' tracking capability Nikon's offered for a long time (and Canon did as well, just using only depth information from the AF system - in other words, it didn't do it very well). Unfortunately, I never found it able to keep up, and stick as well to the initial subject, as Nikon's D810 or D4s. No matter what combination of use-cases/settings within those use-cases I tried on the 1Dx. The 1Dx is, however, much more capable than the 5D3 at this type of AF. It approaches the Nikons in this regard, but still has some catching up to do - as you'd expect for a 1st generation tech.

So, for my type of shooting, the AF system on the D810 far outperforms the 5D3 I used extensively for 3 years. And that was like icing on the cake, since I'd been wanting a better sensor for a long time.

YMMV for the type of photography you do, of course. If 3D AF tracking doesn't matter to you, the 5D3/1Dx offer very compelling AF systems.

It's just that when you make blanket systems like 'the much more advanced AF system of the 5D3', I really can't sit silent...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 11:47:21 PM by sarangiman »

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2014, 05:18:15 AM »
Im not an AF expert as i rarely use anything other then the center AF point in one shot mode. :) and 40% of the time i focus manually.

I think the 5D MK3 AF is very capable and i don´t know if the D800 AF is worse.

But i think even when it´s worse, it doesn´t make a big difference for the majority of shooter who lust for a D800 sensor in a Canon body.

As allround camera the Canon 5D MK3 is sure more capable.
But that´s Pickup vs. Sportscar talk again.

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Re: Tony Northrup - D810 vs. 5D Mk3
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2014, 05:18:15 AM »