September 18, 2014, 10:17:43 PM

Author Topic: HSS with Einsteins win!  (Read 2624 times)

pwp

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HSS with Einsteins win!
« on: August 10, 2014, 01:51:24 AM »
Everything I'd read about Einsteins and HSS suggested that it was a dead-end, you'll never achieve it. I've tested with a few different triggers and got nothing but black frames above the max sync speed.

But while I was fine tuning the Phottix Odin trigger with the ODS adjustments to optimize it for the Godox 360, just out of curiosity I thought I'd see one more time how I went with the Einsteins. You guessed it, with a bit of fine tuning through the Odin's ODS settings, I'm getting viable HSS with the Einsteins provided they're on full power (longest flash duration). Results with the 5D3 with it's native 1/200 sec max were kind of OK, but with the 1D MkIV and it's 1/300 sec max and smaller sensor, it's GOOD right up to 1/8000 sec.  I expect it would be even smoother on an APS-C body. It'll be nice if the 7DII ships with a 1/300 sec sync speed.

OMG the Phottix Odins are an extraordinary bit of hardware. I expect if I dug into the menus a little deeper I'll discover it will make nice espresso coffee too.

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HSS with Einsteins win!
« on: August 10, 2014, 01:51:24 AM »

wickidwombat

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 06:01:30 AM »
nice

just out of interest are your odins the mk2 version? or the mk1
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pwp

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 08:32:09 AM »
...just out of interest are your odins the mk2 version? or the mk1
MkI but with the firmware update. The MkI original firmware doesn't have ODS.
The primary reason for the firmware update is the ODS functionality.

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agierke

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2014, 12:13:20 PM »
Can you post some shots? I'm very curious about achieving hss with studio strobes.
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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 11:06:56 AM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, my feeling is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.

I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...
What a mess, my camera's sensor is full of massless particules that keep on trying to behave like waves!

KyleSTL

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 01:11:23 PM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, my feeling is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.

I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...
Longer flash duration during shutter travel is exactly what HSS is.  There is not other way to do it since there is no point in time during which the entire shutter is exposed.
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privatebydesign

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 01:25:14 PM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, my feeling is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.

I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...
Longer flash duration during shutter travel is exactly what HSS is.  There is not other way to do it since there is no point in time during which the entire shutter is exposed.

No it isn't, HSS is many high speed pulses timed such that the entire shutter slot gets even illumination; not one long flash buts lots of very short flashes. These tiny fast short flashes effectively emulate one longer one, but at the cost of much power.
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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 01:25:14 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 01:32:11 PM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

Correct, but it does equate to faster sync, it isn't HSS, it is what Pocket Wizard call HyperSync, the trick is to get the flash to fire before the second curtain starts its travel, that is what causes the shadow, the second curtain, so if you can adjust your triggering time to sync not when the first curtain is fully open, as in normal sync, but before that, just before the second curtain starts to close and your flash duration will last the entire exposure at an evenish value then you get faster sync.

But what it should more accurately be called is second curtain sync above true sync speed, but SCSATSS is nowhere near as cool as HSS or HyperSync!
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Maui5150

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 01:34:05 PM »
I do this all the time, previously with my Photogenics and now with Dynalite using Pocketwizard Flex TT5s

Using a Dynalite M2000ER and 4080-BiTube heads, I can shoot at 1/2500 sec.  I can shoot faster, but that is the flash duration of the 4080 Bi-Tube. 

The one that made my head hurt was then synching a second remote camera.  On the pocket wizards they have a relay feature so I have the remote on one channel and the flash on one channel higher, and I can't remember if I had to use a slower shutter on the triggering camera. 

Key on that set up is to have manual focus so there is no AF hunting

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 04:55:48 PM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, my feeling is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.

I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...
Longer flash duration during shutter travel is exactly what HSS is.  There is not other way to do it since there is no point in time during which the entire shutter is exposed.

No it isn't, HSS is many high speed pulses timed such that the entire shutter slot gets even illumination; not one long flash buts lots of very short flashes. These tiny fast short flashes effectively emulate one longer one, but at the cost of much power.

As most of the light emitted during a flash is at the beginning of the burst of light and the IGBT just interrupt the flash at the desired duration, many short pulse result in a 'somewhat constant' light source as opposed to the long but quite 'uneven' lighting of a single long duration flash. Therefore, having multiple very short and likely less intense flashes during the exposure seems more efficient and must result in a more repeatable/consistent lighting than one long flash. The energy cost is from keeping the output almost constant for the duration of the illumination, at least that is my understanding.
What a mess, my camera's sensor is full of massless particules that keep on trying to behave like waves!

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 04:58:51 PM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

Correct, but it does equate to faster sync, it isn't HSS, it is what Pocket Wizard call HyperSync, the trick is to get the flash to fire before the second curtain starts its travel, that is what causes the shadow, the second curtain, so if you can adjust your triggering time to sync not when the first curtain is fully open, as in normal sync, but before that, just before the second curtain starts to close and your flash duration will last the entire exposure at an evenish value then you get faster sync.

But what it should more accurately be called is second curtain sync above true sync speed, but SCSATSS is nowhere near as cool as HSS or HyperSync!

Thanks, it right that SCSATSS does not sound right. I guess its better to have this than nothing, but I just thought that having absolutely no control over the light source, as opposed to true HSS, was quite a bit of a sacrifice.

Edit: How about Hyper Speed Second Curtain Sync (HSSCS) though?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 05:02:56 PM by IMG_0001 »
What a mess, my camera's sensor is full of massless particules that keep on trying to behave like waves!

KyleSTL

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 06:16:13 PM »
Isn't that working just because the whole process of taking the picture occurs within the 1/540 s of the full power flash duration? If so, it is not really high speed sync isn't it?

The resulting flash power must also be quite low as a 1/8000 s the exposure would only capture about 7% of the flash duration. Also, how constant is the flash exposure? As a flash output is far from linear, my feeling is that a small change in timing might result in quite a change in exposure.

I'm only starting of with flash photography and that's only me thinking out loud here. I was just wondering...
Longer flash duration during shutter travel is exactly what HSS is.  There is not other way to do it since there is no point in time during which the entire shutter is exposed.

No it isn't, HSS is many high speed pulses timed such that the entire shutter slot gets even illumination; not one long flash buts lots of very short flashes. These tiny fast short flashes effectively emulate one longer one, but at the cost of much power.

I was unaware of that.  I guess I have misunderstood HSS all along.  Thanks for the clarification.
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pwp

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 10:03:08 PM »
I'm clear on why HSS works with a speedlight with the pulsing, but getting 1/8000 sec with my Einsteins triggering with ODS calibrated Phottix Odins is clearly some class of dark magic that I'm inclined to thankfully accept rather than try to understand the actual physics of. All I can say is that it works...not as well on the 5D3 as the 1D4 but there you have it.

On a brutally revealing white-wall test, there is evidence of slightly uneven exposure, but nothing that would noticeably effect real-world, outdoor location shots. Of course there is some power loss as the shutter speeds head north, but that's to be expected.

What we can expect over the next year or so is a deluge of HSS enabled monolights flooding out of China. What's more they'll likely have TTL as well. The era of dependable "dumb" studio packs and monos is now pretty well consigned to history. This is fun.

-pw

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 10:03:08 PM »

PhotoCat

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 07:40:08 AM »
The following article may shed some light on what is actually happening:

http://wiki.pocketwizard.com/index.php?title=IGBT-controlled_flashes_vs._Voltage-controlled_flashes


According to the article, Einstein E640 definitely works better in full power than in half power in a HSS (hypersync) setup.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 07:44:38 AM by PhotoCat »

PhotoCat

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2014, 07:57:07 AM »
Ironically, a less sophisticated strobe design is more likely to work better with HSS because the
natural flash discharge tail (flash duration) is longer!

http://www.paulcbuff.com/images/graphics/terms/flashduration.png

This explains why the cheapo strobes from China may actually work well with HSS!
The serious down side for the cheapo strobes is that it will be much more prone to motion blur when your model is in motion e.g. dancing, as the cheapo strobes don't freeze actions well.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:52:34 AM by PhotoCat »

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Re: HSS with Einsteins win!
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2014, 07:57:07 AM »