October 20, 2014, 07:56:26 PM

Author Topic: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information  (Read 34497 times)

Marauder

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #240 on: August 16, 2014, 04:55:47 PM »
@ jrista – you seem to be taking the line of thought that including a touchscreen would come at the price of removing dials/buttons, but there no reason to think that would be the case on a higher end dSLR.  Rather, a touchscreen would add functionality.  If the 7DII has improved DPAF, would you really want to drive the AF point around the frame with a joystick? 

As others have stated, touch screens are becoming the norm - on phones, on remote controls, even on microwave ovens.  Your average teenager or twenty-something can type two-thumbed on an iPhone at wpm rates faster than most people can achieve on a regular keyboard.  Those are the people becoming professional photographers today.

That's not my line of thought. My line of thought is, adding a touch screen and all the firmware requires resources at Canon to perform. They have to implement it, test it, work the bugs out of it, etc. All that...when there are other things Canon could be investing those resources into. My line of thought is, for everyone who puts lack of a Touch UI at the top of their list of deal breakers or the thing that makes them must frustrated about the 7D II...they are very short sighted. My line of thought is, while I fully agree a Touch UI is nice (I've used the EOS-M's touch UI...its nice), it is the farthest thing from the most "essential" feature that the 7D II could possibly get.

That's my line of thought. Personally, the deal breaker for me, is whether Canon does something fundamentally new with their sensor design or not. Personally, the biggest bummer for me, would be if Canon doesn't include a 1DX/5DIII class level AF system or not. Another bummer for me would be if the 7D II gets a massive video update...but still has the same old IQ issues that Canon's past cameras have had. THOSE are deal breakers. Those are real things to complain about. Those things would show that Canon has lost touch with what their customers want (which they so far have a good track record of, Canon has listened and listened well to their customers in the past), and THAT would be the single worst outcome of all with the 7D II release.

Not having a touch UI...it doesn't matter to me one way or another whether they include one or not, so long as it doesn't cause them to NOT do something that really IS a deal breaker. I'd be pissed if the 7DII hit the streets with a super awesome kick ass touch UI...and the same old freaking sensor, same old iFCL metering sensor and limited metering behavior, and worst of all...same old freakin gimped out 19pt AF system that can't reliably maintain a SOLID lock on a target. THAT would piss me off. I could care less if it has a touch UI, though.

Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. I've invested a lot of money in Canon equipment, and I want them to progress on all fronts. I don't think the inclusion or lack of a touch UI has anything to do with the fundamental bottom line for how consumers and professionals see Canon as a company, or grade their products relative to other companies. I do think, however, that Canon releasing another camera that still has the same IQ as the 5D II did so many years ago now, would have a SIGNIFICANT impact on how people perceive Canon as a company...and much like other major companies in the past, that could be the focal point that sends Canon into a long term decline, affecting their R&D budgets for the future, affecting their ability to legitimately compete on the multiple technological fronts that they are having to do battle in, etc. I don't want to be stuck with a $13,000 lens and a brand new Canon 5D V five years from now that...isn't any better than my 5D III from a fundamental IQ standpoint, while Sony sensors are literally cranking out 15.8 stop of DR with 16-bit RAW files in Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, and every other camera manufacturer on earth.

Canon has a problem. I know you do not believe that, but they do. It's a perceptual problem, and it could seriously affect their revenues and ability to fund the necessary R&D in the years to come. Such things have happened before, and often companies, even if they were on the top of the world, NEVER recover (Kodak?) So...seriously...touch screens and touch UIs?

Anyway, I'm out. Got other things to do.

I concur.  The potential absence of a touch screen surprised me, rather than upset me.  But for me a killer AF with amazing speed and accuracy, combined with a high burst rate (and deep buffer to use it), are the two main "must have" items for this camera.  An improved sensor is also very desirable and I think that may be the biggest challenge for them to achieve. 

Like you, I also want them to succeed and succeed well.  Not just because I have a lot invested in their equipment, but because I want to see them retain their own sensor designing team.  The best way to make sure both Sony and Canon sensors continue to improve is a healthy competition and spirit of innovation for both sensor design teams. (Oh yes, and Fuji too!).

Jon, am I detecting a note of pessimism when it comes to the sensor tech, or do you think they'll pull it out of the hat?
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #240 on: August 16, 2014, 04:55:47 PM »

Marauder

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #241 on: August 16, 2014, 04:58:49 PM »
  Only time will tell, but its these little snippets that keep us coming here, right?  :o

It feels like two weeks before the NFL draft, with CR playing the part of Mel Kiper.

Kiper: "Well it's a lock that Canon will be drafting a replacement for the aging 7D in the first round. It looked like a mini-1DX at the combine, and hopefully that will translate into production."
McShay: "That's probably true. However, although everyone expects a 100-400 in the second round, I wouldn't be surprised to see them to pass like they did for the last couple of years. Maybe a surprise like a 180 macro with IS, just to create a splash."

And like on sports forums, there is as much (if not more) angst about what might happen than about what actually does happen.

I'm just happy that I bought my 5D3 nearly two years ago to replace my aging 20D rather than waiting for the 7D2 (which I was strongly considering). When the 7D2 (or whatever they call it) finally comes out, it might be the best fit for my uses, but I'm more than happy enough with my current camera so I'm not really interested in moving over. As for the 100-400, if that comes out and if it has similar performance like the 70-200 II, that might be a different story.

100-400 II is also on my RADAR--but I cannot afford both and I am reasonably happy with my current 100-400.  Still, I'd like to see them released together--then I could start saving for the lens after I buy the damn camera! LOL
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #242 on: August 16, 2014, 05:03:35 PM »
100-400 II is also on my RADAR--but I cannot afford both and I am reasonably happy with my current 100-400.  Still, I'd like to see them released together--then I could start saving for the lens after I buy the damn camera! LOL
I started saving for the 100-400II when the first rumours of it came out. I can now afford a 1DX and 800F5.6 :)
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #243 on: August 16, 2014, 05:09:38 PM »
However, all of the Canon DSLRs I've used have a plastic screen cover, and I'd be surprised if that were not true across the board.  Plastic is a lot more flexible, albeit at a cost in terms of getting scratched a lot more easily.  On the other hand, you don't put your DSLR in your pocket, so scratch resistance is less relevant.

The 7D,5D3, and 1DX have glass screens that are bonded to the LCD panel while all other non-touchscreen DSLRs have a replaceable plastic cover over the LCD.  I'm not sure about the cameras with touchscreens though.
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #244 on: August 16, 2014, 05:11:44 PM »
100-400 II is also on my RADAR--but I cannot afford both and I am reasonably happy with my current 100-400.  Still, I'd like to see them released together--then I could start saving for the lens after I buy the damn camera! LOL
I started saving for the 100-400II when the first rumours of it came out. I can now afford a 1DX and 800F5.6 :)
400mm f2.8 is ii + 2x tc iii is better than 800mm f5.6.  :P
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #245 on: August 16, 2014, 05:20:23 PM »
100-400 II is also on my RADAR--but I cannot afford both and I am reasonably happy with my current 100-400.  Still, I'd like to see them released together--then I could start saving for the lens after I buy the damn camera! LOL
I started saving for the 100-400II when the first rumours of it came out. I can now afford a 1DX and 800F5.6 :)
400mm f2.8 is ii + 2x tc iii is better than 800mm f5.6.  :P
yeah, but now I'm waiting for the  1DX2 and 800F5.6II :)
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Marauder

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #246 on: August 16, 2014, 05:21:22 PM »
100-400 II is also on my RADAR--but I cannot afford both and I am reasonably happy with my current 100-400.  Still, I'd like to see them released together--then I could start saving for the lens after I buy the damn camera! LOL
I started saving for the 100-400II when the first rumours of it came out. I can now afford a 1DX and 800F5.6 :)

LOL  Canon Savings And Loan
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #246 on: August 16, 2014, 05:21:22 PM »

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #247 on: August 16, 2014, 05:24:58 PM »
  Only time will tell, but its these little snippets that keep us coming here, right?  :o

It feels like two weeks before the NFL draft, with CR playing the part of Mel Kiper.

Kiper: "Well it's a lock that Canon will be drafting a replacement for the aging 7D in the first round. It looked like a mini-1DX at the combine, and hopefully that will translate into production."
McShay: "That's probably true. However, although everyone expects a 100-400 in the second round, I wouldn't be surprised to see them to pass like they did for the last couple of years. Maybe a surprise like a 180 macro with IS, just to create a splash."

And like on sports forums, there is as much (if not more) angst about what might happen than about what actually does happen.

I'm just happy that I bought my 5D3 nearly two years ago to replace my aging 20D rather than waiting for the 7D2 (which I was strongly considering). When the 7D2 (or whatever they call it) finally comes out, it might be the best fit for my uses, but I'm more than happy enough with my current camera so I'm not really interested in moving over. As for the 100-400, if that comes out and if it has similar performance like the 70-200 II, that might be a different story.

Hah, yeah sports talk makes gear talk like child's play in comparison.  ;D

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #248 on: August 16, 2014, 05:36:11 PM »
Actual Rumors in Japanese chat forums (got infos from an japanese girlfriend:

- 400.000 Yen (>2900€) (variying 300.000-450.000 Y, most rumors on 400.000)
- designed for sports photography. >10 pps, AF speed on miirrorless camera niveau, fast and accurate AF on moving objects (tracking a lot better than actual 7D)
- operationnal design and ergonomy focused on professional use
- IQ better than 7D, more ISO-range, lesser noise. But IQ/DR is not the main optimization goal ( MK4 5D will be designed as an semiprofessional goldenegglayingwoolmilksaw for an non-professional user)

I can't wait to get my hands on a goldenegglayingwoolmilksaw with good IQ/DR for the non-pro user!

You just took the goldenegglayingwoolmilksaw words right out of my mouth!  ;D

 ;D

I wonder how that translation came about!

Most have heard about the goose that lays a golden egg and then maybe in their sayings wool stands in for something fancy? and then well not sure how you can saw milk, but if you could, I guess that would be kinda incredible so maybe it's a Japanese expression for something like beyond impossibly incredible, capable and awesome?

So they are combing that in one super ultra word that signifies something super fancy that is impossibly incredible and will sell so well at to bring near infinite profits (?) and using that to describe what they know of the 5D4  ;D (!)

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #249 on: August 16, 2014, 05:42:50 PM »
@ jrista – you seem to be taking the line of thought that including a touchscreen would come at the price of removing dials/buttons, but there no reason to think that would be the case on a higher end dSLR.  Rather, a touchscreen would add functionality.  If the 7DII has improved DPAF, would you really want to drive the AF point around the frame with a joystick? 

As others have stated, touch screens are becoming the norm - on phones, on remote controls, even on microwave ovens.  Your average teenager or twenty-something can type two-thumbed on an iPhone at wpm rates faster than most people can achieve on a regular keyboard.  Those are the people becoming professional photographers today.

That's not my line of thought. My line of thought is, adding a touch screen and all the firmware requires resources at Canon to perform. They have to implement it, test it, work the bugs out of it, etc. All that...when there are other things Canon could be investing those resources into. My line of thought is, for everyone who puts lack of a Touch UI at the top of their list of deal breakers or the thing that makes them must frustrated about the 7D II...they are very short sighted. My line of thought is, while I fully agree a Touch UI is nice (I've used the EOS-M's touch UI...its nice), it is the farthest thing from the most "essential" feature that the 7D II could possibly get.

That's my line of thought.

Ok, by that line of thought Canon should not include AFMA in the 7DII, either.  After all...They have to implement it, test it, work the bugs out of it, etc. 

Canon uses touchscreens in multiple products, including several dSLRs.  The hardware is 'off the shelf' and the firmware for the UI is already written, and would need only tweaks and testing (just as AFMA would, although they blew the testing with the 1D X which had an AMFA bug at launch).  So...the development resources needed would be minimal.  But, Canon doesn't want to release a 'perfect' APS-C camera, so if there's no touchscreen in the 7DII (a big IF, at this point), no doubt it'll show up in the 7DIII.
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #250 on: August 16, 2014, 05:51:12 PM »
@ jrista – you seem to be taking the line of thought that including a touchscreen would come at the price of removing dials/buttons, but there no reason to think that would be the case on a higher end dSLR.  Rather, a touchscreen would add functionality.  If the 7DII has improved DPAF, would you really want to drive the AF point around the frame with a joystick? 

As others have stated, touch screens are becoming the norm - on phones, on remote controls, even on microwave ovens.  Your average teenager or twenty-something can type two-thumbed on an iPhone at wpm rates faster than most people can achieve on a regular keyboard.  Those are the people becoming professional photographers today.

That's not my line of thought. My line of thought is, adding a touch screen and all the firmware requires resources at Canon to perform. They have to implement it, test it, work the bugs out of it, etc. All that...when there are other things Canon could be investing those resources into. My line of thought is, for everyone who puts lack of a Touch UI at the top of their list of deal breakers or the thing that makes them must frustrated about the 7D II...they are very short sighted. My line of thought is, while I fully agree a Touch UI is nice (I've used the EOS-M's touch UI...its nice), it is the farthest thing from the most "essential" feature that the 7D II could possibly get.

That's my line of thought.

Ok, by that line of thought Canon should not include AFMA in the 7DII, either.  After all...They have to implement it, test it, work the bugs out of it, etc. 

Canon uses touchscreens in multiple products, including several dSLRs.  The hardware is 'off the shelf' and the firmware for the UI is already written, and would need only tweaks and testing (just as AFMA would, although they blew the testing with the 1D X which had an AMFA bug at launch).  So...the development resources needed would be minimal.  But, Canon doesn't want to release a 'perfect' APS-C camera, so if there's no touchscreen in the 7DII (a big IF, at this point), no doubt it'll show up in the 7DIII.
My thinking is that it is probably cheaper to just make one display and to use it on everything... only one part to stock... only one set of drivers to write..... This is why I would be surprised if it is omitted.
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #251 on: August 16, 2014, 05:51:41 PM »
I concur.  The potential absence of a touch screen surprised me, rather than upset me.  But for me a killer AF with amazing speed and accuracy, combined with a high burst rate (and deep buffer to use it), are the two main "must have" items for this camera.  An improved sensor is also very desirable and I think that may be the biggest challenge for them to achieve. 

Like you, I also want them to succeed and succeed well.  Not just because I have a lot invested in their equipment, but because I want to see them retain their own sensor designing team.  The best way to make sure both Sony and Canon sensors continue to improve is a healthy competition and spirit of innovation for both sensor design teams. (Oh yes, and Fuji too!).

I totally agree. We really need competition in the marketplace. Aptina and some of the other sensor manufacturers don't really compete in the larger form factor  camera market (DSLRs and larger-sensor mirrorless). Since Nikon has effectively bowed out...it's mainly Sony and Canon, with a little bit of competition from Panasonic and maybe one or two other small players. So I agree, it's critical that Canon succeed here, so they don't hand Sony a default monopoly on a platter.

Jon, am I detecting a note of pessimism when it comes to the sensor tech, or do you think they'll pull it out of the hat?

I dunno. I've watched Canon for years now. I had high hopes, based on the patents I've read about. But when you dig into the history of those patents, many of them were initially filed before the 7D came out, or shortly after the 7D. Some were filed around the time the 1D IV came out. Filed, then granted usually around 18 months later. That means Canon had the technology long before that. Some of the patents indicate initial research in 2004, 2005, 2006.

A lot of Canon's patents sound very similar to the technology Sony has in the Exmor. I know Canon has a CP-ADC patent. They also have some very interesting patents that involve reducing dark current noise (something else Sony is very good at...Sony has some of the lowest dark current noise CCD sensors on the market that kick the crap out of the long-standing Kodak sensors. A Kodak KAF-8300, for example, has 0.02e-/s/px dark current noise accumulation, where as the new Sony ICX 674 and 694 sensors have an incredible 0.003e-/s/px...which is so low that no one who uses an astrocam with a Sony CCD even bothers with dark frames anymore...they simply aren't necessary anymore.) Canon has a patent that uses some kind of dynamic power disconnection to prevent dark current accumulation...I suspect it could reduce dark current levels below even Sony's CCD sensor levels. Canon also has a dual scale ADC readout system, which would allow them to switch to a slower readout speed when possible, which would also reduce read noise (a lot of read noise comes from high frequency components...reduce the frequency, reduce the noise.)

Canon has all this technology, and yet...where is it? Some if it is a decade old!! Where is it?

Yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic now when it comes to Canon's ability to actually EMPLOY their patents in actual products. There is another company that was like that. They were one of the most innovative companies in the cellphone industry. They have a patent library that is MASSIVE, and has some of the most incredible technology in the cell phone, smartphone, and tablet industry. They had technology patented long before Apple started making things like the iPhone and iPad that could have crushed Apple before they even got started. But they never used the technology. They invented it all...and just sat on it.

That company was Nokia. They used to be at the top of the cellphone world. They were the biggest manufacturer, raking in more money than all the rest combined. Look where they are now. They are a shadow of their former shadow, and Nokia itself no longer even owns a lot of those patents as they've sold them to Microsoft. Microsoft themselves is another company that rested on their laurels, and lost the race. They are still a force in the tech industry, but they have a major perceptual problem...they are often perceived as irrelevant now.

When I look at Canon...I see some kind of blend between Microsoft and Nokia being their future. Canon has a LOT of amazing technology. They've prototyped ultra high resolution sensors with very high frame rates. They file more patents every year than nearly all other companies. And yet...where are the products that use that technology? Canon is quickly racing towards a future where they could potentially be perceived as irrelevant by the consumers that currently pay Canon's bills, fund their innovation. Canon is quickly racing towards a future where they have a ton of technology that they are just sitting on, just like Nokia, just like Kodak, instead of putting it to work making competitive products that give their competitors a run for their money.

So yeah. I'm pretty pessimistic about Canon's ability to bring technology to bear in their products. The 7D II should have been in the works a long time ago. Canon should have been making it a competitive product long before the 5D III was released. Canon should have known where their competitors were going, so they wouldn't have been caught so massively off guard (as it seems clear now that they were...otherwise they wouldn't have had to delay the 7D II release so much...it's now two years overdue, that's a really long time.)

I am hoping the 7D II gets a major boost to still photography IQ, but it's a pessimistic hope.  :-\

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #252 on: August 16, 2014, 05:58:18 PM »
I'd like the Touch IU added on top of whatever is already in place w/ an option to turn it off. It'd be a win for all who use it and those who don't need it.

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #252 on: August 16, 2014, 05:58:18 PM »

Marauder

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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #253 on: August 16, 2014, 06:12:04 PM »
I concur.  The potential absence of a touch screen surprised me, rather than upset me.  But for me a killer AF with amazing speed and accuracy, combined with a high burst rate (and deep buffer to use it), are the two main "must have" items for this camera.  An improved sensor is also very desirable and I think that may be the biggest challenge for them to achieve. 

Like you, I also want them to succeed and succeed well.  Not just because I have a lot invested in their equipment, but because I want to see them retain their own sensor designing team.  The best way to make sure both Sony and Canon sensors continue to improve is a healthy competition and spirit of innovation for both sensor design teams. (Oh yes, and Fuji too!).

I totally agree. We really need competition in the marketplace. Aptina and some of the other sensor manufacturers don't really compete in the larger form factor  camera market (DSLRs and larger-sensor mirrorless). Since Nikon has effectively bowed out...it's mainly Sony and Canon, with a little bit of competition from Panasonic and maybe one or two other small players. So I agree, it's critical that Canon succeed here, so they don't hand Sony a default monopoly on a platter.

Jon, am I detecting a note of pessimism when it comes to the sensor tech, or do you think they'll pull it out of the hat?

I dunno. I've watched Canon for years now. I had high hopes, based on the patents I've read about. But when you dig into the history of those patents, many of them were initially filed before the 7D came out, or shortly after the 7D. Some were filed around the time the 1D IV came out. Filed, then granted usually around 18 months later. That means Canon had the technology long before that. Some of the patents indicate initial research in 2004, 2005, 2006.

A lot of Canon's patents sound very similar to the technology Sony has in the Exmor. I know Canon has a CP-ADC patent. They also have some very interesting patents that involve reducing dark current noise (something else Sony is very good at...Sony has some of the lowest dark current noise CCD sensors on the market that kick the crap out of the long-standing Kodak sensors. A Kodak KAF-8300, for example, has 0.02e-/s/px dark current noise accumulation, where as the new Sony ICX 674 and 694 sensors have an incredible 0.003e-/s/px...which is so low that no one who uses an astrocam with a Sony CCD even bothers with dark frames anymore...they simply aren't necessary anymore.) Canon has a patent that uses some kind of dynamic power disconnection to prevent dark current accumulation...I suspect it could reduce dark current levels below even Sony's CCD sensor levels. Canon also has a dual scale ADC readout system, which would allow them to switch to a slower readout speed when possible, which would also reduce read noise (a lot of read noise comes from high frequency components...reduce the frequency, reduce the noise.)

Canon has all this technology, and yet...where is it? Some if it is a decade old!! Where is it?

Yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic now when it comes to Canon's ability to actually EMPLOY their patents in actual products. There is another company that was like that. They were one of the most innovative companies in the cellphone industry. They have a patent library that is MASSIVE, and has some of the most incredible technology in the cell phone, smartphone, and tablet industry. They had technology patented long before Apple started making things like the iPhone and iPad that could have crushed Apple before they even got started. But they never used the technology. They invented it all...and just sat on it.

That company was Nokia. They used to be at the top of the cellphone world. They were the biggest manufacturer, raking in more money than all the rest combined. Look where they are now. They are a shadow of their former shadow, and Nokia itself no longer even owns a lot of those patents as they've sold them to Microsoft. Microsoft themselves is another company that rested on their laurels, and lost the race. They are still a force in the tech industry, but they have a major perceptual problem...they are often perceived as irrelevant now.

When I look at Canon...I see some kind of blend between Microsoft and Nokia being their future. Canon has a LOT of amazing technology. They've prototyped ultra high resolution sensors with very high frame rates. They file more patents every year than nearly all other companies. And yet...where are the products that use that technology? Canon is quickly racing towards a future where they could potentially be perceived as irrelevant by the consumers that currently pay Canon's bills, fund their innovation. Canon is quickly racing towards a future where they have a ton of technology that they are just sitting on, just like Nokia, just like Kodak, instead of putting it to work making competitive products that give their competitors a run for their money.

So yeah. I'm pretty pessimistic about Canon's ability to bring technology to bear in their products. The 7D II should have been in the works a long time ago. Canon should have been making it a competitive product long before the 5D III was released. Canon should have known where their competitors were going, so they wouldn't have been caught so massively off guard (as it seems clear now that they were...otherwise they wouldn't have had to delay the 7D II release so much...it's now two years overdue, that's a really long time.)

I am hoping the 7D II gets a major boost to still photography IQ, but it's a pessimistic hope.  :-\

Complacency is a huge danger, especially when one gets bigger.  Canon's been doing some amazing things with super telephoto lenses lately. They just need to get things rolling again.  A while back there was a mention that many of the patents for the new sensor tech haven't even been filed.  Hopefully that means they've pulled something special out of their hat. 

Your Kodak and Nokia examples are very relevant.  Just a few months ago I was having a conversation about how dominant Nokia and Motorola were in cell phones, only to evaporate.  When it comes to cameras too, it's hard not to think of Minolta--beating everyone to the Autofocus game with the Maxxum 7000 and 9000--only to lose it.  Being on top can be nearly as dangerous as being on the bottom!
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #254 on: August 16, 2014, 06:15:15 PM »
I concur.  The potential absence of a touch screen surprised me, rather than upset me.  But for me a killer AF with amazing speed and accuracy, combined with a high burst rate (and deep buffer to use it), are the two main "must have" items for this camera.  An improved sensor is also very desirable and I think that may be the biggest challenge for them to achieve. 

Like you, I also want them to succeed and succeed well.  Not just because I have a lot invested in their equipment, but because I want to see them retain their own sensor designing team.  The best way to make sure both Sony and Canon sensors continue to improve is a healthy competition and spirit of innovation for both sensor design teams. (Oh yes, and Fuji too!).

I totally agree. We really need competition in the marketplace. Aptina and some of the other sensor manufacturers don't really compete in the larger form factor  camera market (DSLRs and larger-sensor mirrorless). Since Nikon has effectively bowed out...it's mainly Sony and Canon, with a little bit of competition from Panasonic and maybe one or two other small players. So I agree, it's critical that Canon succeed here, so they don't hand Sony a default monopoly on a platter.

Jon, am I detecting a note of pessimism when it comes to the sensor tech, or do you think they'll pull it out of the hat?

I dunno. I've watched Canon for years now. I had high hopes, based on the patents I've read about. But when you dig into the history of those patents, many of them were initially filed before the 7D came out, or shortly after the 7D. Some were filed around the time the 1D IV came out. Filed, then granted usually around 18 months later. That means Canon had the technology long before that. Some of the patents indicate initial research in 2004, 2005, 2006.

A lot of Canon's patents sound very similar to the technology Sony has in the Exmor. I know Canon has a CP-ADC patent. They also have some very interesting patents that involve reducing dark current noise (something else Sony is very good at...Sony has some of the lowest dark current noise CCD sensors on the market that kick the crap out of the long-standing Kodak sensors. A Kodak KAF-8300, for example, has 0.02e-/s/px dark current noise accumulation, where as the new Sony ICX 674 and 694 sensors have an incredible 0.003e-/s/px...which is so low that no one who uses an astrocam with a Sony CCD even bothers with dark frames anymore...they simply aren't necessary anymore.) Canon has a patent that uses some kind of dynamic power disconnection to prevent dark current accumulation...I suspect it could reduce dark current levels below even Sony's CCD sensor levels. Canon also has a dual scale ADC readout system, which would allow them to switch to a slower readout speed when possible, which would also reduce read noise (a lot of read noise comes from high frequency components...reduce the frequency, reduce the noise.)

Canon has all this technology, and yet...where is it? Some if it is a decade old!! Where is it?

Yeah, I'm pretty pessimistic now when it comes to Canon's ability to actually EMPLOY their patents in actual products. There is another company that was like that. They were one of the most innovative companies in the cellphone industry. They have a patent library that is MASSIVE, and has some of the most incredible technology in the cell phone, smartphone, and tablet industry. They had technology patented long before Apple started making things like the iPhone and iPad that could have crushed Apple before they even got started. But they never used the technology. They invented it all...and just sat on it.

That company was Nokia. They used to be at the top of the cellphone world. They were the biggest manufacturer, raking in more money than all the rest combined. Look where they are now. They are a shadow of their former shadow, and Nokia itself no longer even owns a lot of those patents as they've sold them to Microsoft. Microsoft themselves is another company that rested on their laurels, and lost the race. They are still a force in the tech industry, but they have a major perceptual problem...they are often perceived as irrelevant now.

When I look at Canon...I see some kind of blend between Microsoft and Nokia being their future. Canon has a LOT of amazing technology. They've prototyped ultra high resolution sensors with very high frame rates. They file more patents every year than nearly all other companies. And yet...where are the products that use that technology? Canon is quickly racing towards a future where they could potentially be perceived as irrelevant by the consumers that currently pay Canon's bills, fund their innovation. Canon is quickly racing towards a future where they have a ton of technology that they are just sitting on, just like Nokia, just like Kodak, instead of putting it to work making competitive products that give their competitors a run for their money.

So yeah. I'm pretty pessimistic about Canon's ability to bring technology to bear in their products. The 7D II should have been in the works a long time ago. Canon should have been making it a competitive product long before the 5D III was released. Canon should have known where their competitors were going, so they wouldn't have been caught so massively off guard (as it seems clear now that they were...otherwise they wouldn't have had to delay the 7D II release so much...it's now two years overdue, that's a really long time.)

I am hoping the 7D II gets a major boost to still photography IQ, but it's a pessimistic hope.  :-\
Agreed! They have done great things in the lab, but I think any advancements at the consumer level are not going to happen until they finally switch to finer lithography for their production work. They have this capability for the p/s models, but the DSLR sensors are still on old tech fabrication lines.

What I hope has been happening is that Canon had accurately foreseen the shrinkage of the P/S market and made the decision not to spend the immense amount of dollars to create a new fabrication line because they knew that space would be available in the future on the existing P/S line.... and I hope that the 7D2 will be the first DSLR sensor to come from this new line, with all the improvements they have been working on for the last 10 or so years.
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Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« Reply #254 on: August 16, 2014, 06:15:15 PM »