October 02, 2014, 10:47:32 AM

Author Topic: Canon 6D True High ISO King?  (Read 9507 times)

Dylan777

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 08:05:50 PM »
Once again, I disagree. I don't have any issue taking picture with 5D3 under any lighting condition.

That's probably because you've got fast lenses, try af'ing with a f5.6 lens (70-300L on long end) at dusk and you're happy about the 1 more stop of af capability the 6d provides. It's very slow though in these cases, but nice for landscape and such. It really does af in moonlight, I've tried it with my one fast f2.8 100L lens.
The only time my 5d iii didn't focus was when I had lens cap on. I can really see how 6d iq in -3ev lighting condition, since it focus well with f5.6 lens.

I do not think 6d is bad camera. 6d is great ff body for those looking to shoot high iso with no need advance AF.  I do not believe the theory 6d af has more adv. AF in low light over 5d iii. Just because specs showed -3ev...it doesn't mean is useful.  Can the center point focus properly in -3ev is a bigger question.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:21:49 PM by Dylan777 »
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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 08:05:50 PM »

mastreb

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 09:05:22 PM »
My 6D reliably autofocuses at LV -6. I think it's light value and not exposure value that is the important quality in this discussion, but if I'm incorrect let me know.

I just did some handheld shots of the Milky Way on Mauna Kea using my 50mm f/1.0 that turned out great, and the camera easily auto-focused between near focus dark objects like my kids and correct infinity focus for the sky. Most of the shots were f/1, 1/10th s, ISO 25600. Noise is very apparent upon examination but not obvious in the shots.

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 10:08:28 PM »
I just did some handheld shots of the Milky Way on Mauna Kea using my 50mm f/1.0 that turned out great, and the camera easily auto-focused between near focus dark objects like my kids and correct infinity focus for the sky. Most of the shots were f/1, 1/10th s, ISO 25600. Noise is very apparent upon examination but not obvious in the shots.

Man, I so wish Canon would release a new version of that lens.  I'm dubious about buying one because the focusing motors eventually fail, aren't readily replaceable (no parts available), and are required even for manual focusing.  But if Canon released a new version of the 50mm f/1.0 lens with ring USM, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Dylan777

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2014, 12:04:07 AM »
Once again, I disagree. I don't have any issue taking picture with 5D3 under any lighting condition.

That's probably because you've got fast lenses, try af'ing with a f5.6 lens (70-300L on long end) at dusk and you're happy about the 1 more stop of af capability the 6d provides. It's very slow though in these cases, but nice for landscape and such. It really does af in moonlight, I've tried it with my one fast f2.8 100L lens.

Photo below was taken today, around 8:30PM California time. 5D III + 40mm pancake, Av mode @ f5.6, shutter 1.3sec, ISO12800. SOOC, no edit, only resized to post here.

I closed all window blinds and main door - completely darkness. I lit up a small candle and left it in the middle of 17x20 feet office. Set my camera to 2sec/remote and left it on a office chair. I shut off the office light - the office was extremely dim. Looking through the view finder, I wasn't able to see any text on those book at all. Pressed the shutter, heard beep sound from AF confirm instantly. Without looking through view finder, I moved the camera slightly left and right. Pressed the shutter, again... the beep sound was on instantly.

I prefer to shoot with flashes under this lighting condition.

EDIT: my wife gave me a funny look when she saw me walking into the office with a candle, lighter and a camera :o
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:20:12 AM by Dylan777 »
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Marsu42

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2014, 05:04:29 AM »
I do not think 6d is bad camera.

Well, I have it and I do, at least in comparison to the 5d3. Though the reduced banding vs. 5d3 is very nice, the af system simply isn't adequate for this day and age and price tag. The -3LV focus capability of course is a marketing stunt by canon to give people the feeling they don't have the all out inferior product, they usually do this (flip screen on 60d vs 7d, nice colorful paint on Rebels...).

My 6D reliably autofocuses at LV -6. I think it's light value and not exposure value that is the important quality in this discussion, but if I'm incorrect let me know.

Ugh? It's the same, you can calculate the LV from av/tv/iso/ec exposure values. See http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ev.htm

Photo below was taken today, around 8:30PM California time. 5D III + 40mm pancake, Av mode @ f5.6, shutter 1.3sec, ISO12800. SOOC, no edit, only resized to post here.

This is also a fast lens (f2.8, the af system works wide open), as for example the 70-300L @300mm really autofocuses at f5.6.

As for the scene: Focus capability not only relies on the LV calculated by the exposure, but you also have to have some edges for the af system to lock on and an *even* light distribution. The enhanced 6d af system is beneficial if you for example af on a landscape scenery in ambient moonlight (and not on the moon edges itself).

In your case, you had more than ideal conditions - the candle center would be rather bright, and the book provide good edges - that's why the af worked so fast. If it would have really been the 5d3's ev limit, I suspect the af would have been much slower. The LV calculated from your very uneven exposure doesn't tell us anything.

It's unfortunate nobody ever did a real comparison 6d vs 5d3 on the *same* scene so we could tell if the 6d superiority here is a myth or not.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 05:19:56 AM by Marsu42 »

Dylan777

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2014, 11:53:00 AM »
Until then, comment likes "6D center AF point works better than 5D III in low light" is just an imagination.



quote]

Photo below was taken today, around 8:30PM California time. 5D III + 40mm pancake, Av mode @ f5.6, shutter 1.3sec, ISO12800. SOOC, no edit, only resized to post here.

This is also a fast lens (f2.8, the af system works wide open), as for example the 70-300L @300mm really autofocuses at f5.6.

As for the scene: Focus capability not only relies on the LV calculated by the exposure, but you also have to have some edges for the af system to lock on and an *even* light distribution. The enhanced 6d af system is beneficial if you for example af on a landscape scenery in ambient moonlight (and not on the moon edges itself).

In your case, you had more than ideal conditions - the candle center would be rather bright, and the book provide good edges - that's why the af worked so fast. If it would have really been the 5d3's ev limit, I suspect the af would have been much slower. The LV calculated from your very uneven exposure doesn't tell us anything.

It's unfortunate nobody ever did a real comparison 6d vs 5d3 on the *same* scene so we could tell if the 6d superiority here is a myth or not.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 11:55:57 AM by Dylan777 »
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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2014, 12:01:27 PM »
Kudos to the 6D, but the review also mentions 7D as having an excellent sensor for low-light work, so I don't know what to say...
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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2014, 12:01:27 PM »

verysimplejason

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2014, 12:44:11 PM »
Here we go again... 5D3 vs 6D.  I was reminded of an argument not a long time ago that some people can't accept that a lower-priced camera can have a better sensor than its significantly more expensive sibling (in the *same generation).   ::)

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2014, 02:32:50 PM »
Until then, comment likes "6D center AF point works better than 5D III in low light" is just an imagination.

Even though I'm rather critical with the 6d and Canon marketing, they do say that the 5d3 works up to -2lv, the 6d at half this light. I really doubt there is absolutely nothing to it, the question is if it's really a full stop, how slow the cameras are to af at min. light and how often these situations occur.

I was reminded of an argument not a long time ago that some people can't accept that a lower-priced camera can have a better sensor than its significantly more expensive sibling (in the *same generation).  ::)

Nothing unusual about that, it's the complete package that counts, and of course Canon (and every other manufacturer) will take great care that more money means better overall performance. If you have special needs you can sidestep this system (like landscape with the 6d), but you cannot really escape the logic.

Last not least, if you don't want to read anything about 5d3 vs. 6d don't look at a "6D True High ISO King" thread :-p

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2014, 07:15:18 PM »
Until then, comment likes "6D center AF point works better than 5D III in low light" is just an imagination.

Even though I'm rather critical with the 6d and Canon marketing, they do say that the 5d3 works up to -2lv, the 6d at half this light. I really doubt there is absolutely nothing to it, the question is if it's really a full stop, how slow the cameras are to af at min. light and how often these situations occur.

I was reminded of an argument not a long time ago that some people can't accept that a lower-priced camera can have a better sensor than its significantly more expensive sibling (in the *same generation).  ::)

Nothing unusual about that, it's the complete package that counts, and of course Canon (and every other manufacturer) will take great care that more money means better overall performance. If you have special needs you can sidestep this system (like landscape with the 6d), but you cannot really escape the logic.

Last not least, if you don't want to read anything about 5d3 vs. 6d don't look at a "6D True High ISO King" thread :-p

I think you are oversimplifying things "you can sidestep this system (like landscape with the 6d), but you cannot really escape the logic".  Is it logical to just take a camera based on your needs?  Again, if you think 6D isn't the "best" for you then why choose it?  You should have bought 5D3 where you are better served.  You said "it's the complete package that counts".  Now, that's not being logical.  That's a statement that is too subjective.  My point is, everybody has a need that is better served by something else as you yourself mentioned.  Choosing a system based on your need, now that is what we can call logical.  The point is, for those guys who doesn't need the best AF but needs the cleanest high ISO IQ, then 6D is really the King.  Of course, it might be a different case for you so 6D might not be the King for you.  Isn't that logical?  Are we escaping the logic in any way?  ::)

Ruined

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2014, 09:30:03 PM »
5d3 vs 6d is a tough choice for me, if I were given either to use regularly for free and could not sell I'm not sure what I would pick.
-5d3 clearly has overall better AF, but on the other hand I can't put in a high precision focusing screen meaning I can't MF fast lenses accurately through viewfinder (or see what I am truly AFing); 6D center point also rated as being able to focus in lower light than 5d3 per Canon specs.
-I like the joystick on 5d3, but programming the pad on 6d to move AF points works also with a bit less comfort.
-I like the image quality of 5d3, but 6d has better high ISO performance.
-The dual card slots and 1/8000 shutter speed on 5d3 are a nice bonus I'd definitely use, but then again 6d has gps/wifi at no extra cost; though I'd rather have the fast shutter and dual cards than gps/wifi, fast shutter might reduce my usage of ND filters in daylight with fast lenses wide open.

I would like to say the 5d3 is a clear cut upgrade from 6D but there are a important few areas where the 6D exceeds the 5d3.  Hopefully 5d4 will rectify these issues in all areas so I'd consider upgrading to it, as right now the disadvantages of the 5d3 prevent me from considering an upgrade...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 09:35:39 PM by Ruined »

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2014, 03:19:10 AM »
Now, I'm not really interested in yet another 6d vs 5d3 debate, but it's hard not to reply :-p ... but I'll try to let this be my last comment on this specific issue.

Is it logical to just take a camera based on your needs ... Again, if you think 6D isn't the "best" for you then why choose it?

Oh my, that's good ol' CR "Just get a 1dx, 70-200L2, 24-70L2 and be done with it" :-> ... I'm rather amazed about these questions, but fyi I can think of 1200 reasons with an € label attached :-o

You said "it's the complete package that counts".  Now, that's not being logical.

On the contrary, though I admit this was not very precise. I define "complete package" as Canon marketing and statistics would define it, i.e. what what user groups willing how many $$$ to spend need... and then they do or modify the specs.

Imho there is a rather linear "complete package" scale, Rebel "shoot your family on birthdays" group have different needs than the enthusiasts around here. For example looking at the posts, users who buy a ff also want some sort of sealing and pref. a 100% vf - so Canon uses these pieces of information to assemble packages like "6d good sensor / lacking sealing / cropped vf" and "5d3 has it all". These are just examples from the top of my head, but you get the picture.

5d3 vs 6d is a tough choice for me, if I were given either to use regularly for free and could not sell I'm not sure what I would pick.

For me it wasn't because I'm $$$ limited and bodies loose their price much quicker than lenses. I keep commenting on the 6d's af shortcomings as I'm annoyed Canon crippled it beyond what would have been required to separate if from the 5d3.

But truth is, *if* the shot is in focus (and that's not difficult with landscape and such) it has terrific iq and significantly less banding than the 5d3, and at the end of the day people aren't interested in how many shots were lost but only how good the one shot left is. So if I don't lose the shot of my life because the 6d's af fails I'd rather spend the 6d->5d3 difference on lenses, because that's what you see (through).

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2014, 05:21:28 AM »
How does the EG-S screen for the 6D exactly work? Could you also use it to manually focus on a subject located at about one third from the left or right side in the viewfinder? Or does it only work for subjects in the center of the viewfinder?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 07:14:43 AM by jocau »
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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2014, 05:21:28 AM »

Sporgon

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2014, 07:34:42 AM »
How does the EG-S screen for the 6D exactly work? Could you also use it to manually focus on a subject located at about one third from the left or right side in the viewfinder? Or does it only work for subjects in the center of the viewfinder?

It works across the whole screen, but once you move away from the broad centre, the lens you are using will dictate how effective it is as many fast prime's resolution drops away towards the edges of the frame when fully open, and as all cameras now have 'open aperture metering' you are viewing through the lens at its least efficient, resolution wise.

I find the major benefit of the 's' screens is seeing the actual dof. I use them but I still use AF too.

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2014, 08:18:03 AM »
6D is a great landscape and general use camera. Many people don't need a sports/wildlife camera, or would prefer to have a specialist sports/wildlife camera (7D or 1D4) with higher frame rate than the 5D3. The Eg-S screen works fine for demonstrating depth of field. I use manual lenses, some of which have yet to be chipped, so I do like the Eg-S screen over the initial screen.

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Re: Canon 6D True High ISO King?
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2014, 08:18:03 AM »