December 19, 2014, 08:23:40 AM

Author Topic: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List  (Read 13229 times)

jrista

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2014, 10:21:16 PM »
There is a third possibility...

To do 4K right requires 4 times the computing power as 2K video. That makes a lot of heat and drains batteries fast... and there is a real possibility that the problems with dissipating the heat make it impractical in a DSLR body unless you add in heatsinks, and that is a negative to all those using it for stills. Obviously, a 1D-C has the thermal mass, battery capacity, and radiative surface to handle this, but does a smaller body?

Does the Panasonic GH4 not do 4K right?  It certainly doesn't have a large thermal mass or space for big heat sinks inside.

It does not, however it has a considerably more advanced, lower power sensor. Canon is still using huge transistors, and they are not even the more advanced kind of high efficiency multi-gate transistors we're capable of manufacturing today. Canon is really, really, REALLY far behind on sensor tech, and even behind just on general CMOS fabrication.

Yeah, I think a sensor fabricated with an older process using huge transistors IS going to create a lot of heat when operated at a higher speed. So I think Don's comment has a lot of merit.

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2014, 10:21:16 PM »

Khufu

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2014, 10:29:33 PM »
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
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Don Haines

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2014, 10:39:08 PM »
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
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Khufu

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2014, 11:00:28 PM »
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
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krafty

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2014, 11:03:51 PM »
Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....
Northlight is famous for poor guesses.... they have been saying it is about to come out for two years, and after the 70D was released, they had solid rumours for the 7D2 that were lower speced than the 70D... Northlight isn't even worth reading for a laugh....

Luckily your posts keep that from happening here
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Don Haines

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2014, 11:21:40 PM »
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

One of the important things learned over the years was the importance of not saying that something was impossible.... I think that one of the greatest of all technology visionary statements was in 1976 by the engineers at Texas Instruments when they released their 16K by 1 bit memory chip and said "this is it boys, throw away your design tools because this is as dense as memory can possibly be made"... and now I have a 64G micro SD card in my GoPro that is a tenth the size and a million times the capacity and a thousand times faster....
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 11:53:42 PM by Don Haines »
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Don Haines

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2014, 11:46:08 PM »
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I seem to recall that the lithography on their sensors is at least twice the size of anyone else's... their P/S sensors are done in a different production line and the lithography is 4 times smaller....

I am hoping that with the downturn in P/S sales, that there will be space on that line to manufacture a new line of larger sensors with finer lithography. If they were to make the leap, the edges around pixels would shrink, thereby improving the sensitivity of their sensors. With finer lithography, there would now be room on the sensor for the A/D circuitry and it could be done to read an entire row or column at a time. This would shorten the analog path and reduce noise. This on-chip A/D could now run far slower that the off-chip A/D, and that also means less noise. The smaller lithography means lower power consumption, and that means less heat, which means less noise and longer battery life. Smaller lithography means that the circuitry is smaller and the electrons have less distance to go... this makes things run faster.

They have to do this at some time. The sooner the better.
The best camera is the one in your hands

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2014, 11:46:08 PM »

dgatwood

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2014, 11:48:57 PM »
I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

Adaptive optics?  Because that's the only way I can think of that you could even approach a usable picture at that resolution through that much air....  :)

Don Haines

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2014, 11:58:15 PM »
I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

Adaptive optics?  Because that's the only way I can think of that you could even approach a usable picture at that resolution through that much air....  :)
That was in the high arctic... much clearer air there and less turbulence. You have to go down to about 4000 feet here in Eastern Ontario...
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2014, 01:32:42 AM »
Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....
Northlight is famous for poor guesses.... they have been saying it is about to come out for two years, and after the 70D was released, they had solid rumours for the 7D2 that were lower speced than the 70D... Northlight isn't even worth reading for a laugh....

northlight used to have the best info, some years back, then CR got all the acclaim and far more attention and ten the rumors seemed to fade away


x-vision

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2014, 02:02:33 AM »
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me ...

Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

x-vision

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2014, 02:17:41 AM »
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers?

Don and Jrista are right.
For their FF sensors in particular, Canon is still using an old manufacturing process.
See the link that I posted above.

Lawliet

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2014, 02:21:05 AM »

They have to do this at some time. The sooner the better.

Putting basically four of the current aptina sensors next to each other would be a nice start...Phase one-like resolution at 60fps. :)

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2014, 02:21:05 AM »

crashpc

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2014, 03:30:44 AM »
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me ...

Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

Two years old... Srsly where do you people get that fact that they donĀ“t use 180nm or even smaller tech for new sensors? I see no hint of this or opposite....

rrcphoto

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2014, 03:39:54 AM »
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I seem to recall that the lithography on their sensors is at least twice the size of anyone else's... their P/S sensors are done in a different production line and the lithography is 4 times smaller....

actually no one has a clue what they are using on the 70D.

and everyone uses "old tech" on their full frame sensors - the latest and greatest sony's are rolling at 180nm.

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Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2014, 03:39:54 AM »