November 20, 2014, 11:57:47 PM

Author Topic: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?  (Read 62618 times)

dtaylor

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #390 on: September 02, 2014, 09:38:03 AM »
I think all jrista wants is the DR of the Sony sensors in Canon bodies, because the Sony bodies have a wealth of disadvantages that far outweigh the sensor (IMO at least).  You can't take a picture with just a sensor, and Sony is inferior with nearly all of those other aspects of the camera/lens.  If Canon incorporates an improved sensor in a future EOS camera, it would be the best of both worlds.

For tripod landscapes I can't see any disadvantage to an A7 or A7R. AF speed doesn't matter. EVF lets you judge exposure/histogram before shooting. Tilt screen is useful if your tripod is down low. What's the problem? Durability? The Sony's are weather sealed, though I would trust a 7D or 5D3 to take more abuse and keep going. Battery life sucks but those are fairly easy to carry.

I don't see a "wealth of disadvantages" either. A7 is smaller/lighter for street. EVF with peaking is great for MF lenses. It's not a sports/action camera. No question you would grab a DSLR for that. Despite mirrorless vendors claiming every other week that they have the "fastest AF ever" they are not up to DSLR standards. Not the 7D, 5D3, or any where near the 1DX / D4.

I could pick up and shoot either comfortably for most situations. Obviously Canon wins on AF. But if DR was driving me as nuts on landscapes as it seems to be driving jrista, I would order an A7R in a heart beat.

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #390 on: September 02, 2014, 09:38:03 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #391 on: September 02, 2014, 09:43:24 AM »
You don't even seem to understand the fundamental underlying concepts if you really, honestly think that the 70D has more DR than any other Canon camera on the market.

I never said that. I said it had more then the 7D.

So you're saying he TWISTED your words?   :o
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raptor3x

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #392 on: September 02, 2014, 09:54:01 AM »
Nm, I'm not sure about his now.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 10:05:25 AM by raptor3x »
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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #393 on: September 02, 2014, 10:05:18 AM »
Twenty-seven pages and still going. When the original post could have been answered in one word: "No."
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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #394 on: September 02, 2014, 10:37:06 AM »
I bought a D800 after reading the hype.  It was a waste of money, I sold it and bought a 5D MK III.  The D800 appeals to armchair spec readers, but few that actually use one are happy.

Really?

And you interviewed how many D800 owners to come up with this conclusion???

If you prefer Canon over Nikon, great.  Lots of people do.  But to make a generalization like that is a bit much.

Is it really so hard to admit that some people like their Nikons just like some people like their Canons?
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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #395 on: September 02, 2014, 10:52:29 AM »
Twenty-seven pages and still going. When the original post could have been answered in one word: "No."
see reply #232 :)
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #396 on: September 02, 2014, 11:29:44 AM »
I bought a D800 after reading the hype.  It was a waste of money, I sold it and bought a 5D MK III.  The D800 appeals to armchair spec readers, but few that actually use one are happy.

Really?

And you interviewed how many D800 owners to come up with this conclusion???

If you prefer Canon over Nikon, great.  Lots of people do.  But to make a generalization like that is a bit much.

Is it really so hard to admit that some people like their Nikons just like some people like their Canons?

different tools for different things man.  In the wedding industry here, the d800 took a while to catch on.  Most nikon guys I knew were opting for a d3s or a d4 or a used d700.  The few that did snag a d800 did like it for the posed formal shots, but stayed away from making that the primary camera ---not because of IQ or capabilities but because of file size.  More of that crowd is snagging d810's now, because it is a better camera than the original model, and because it's a few years later - the d4s is pricey and their d700's are reaching the end of their cycles....so they are buying the d810 now because they don't have much choice. 
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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #396 on: September 02, 2014, 11:29:44 AM »

jrista

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #397 on: September 02, 2014, 11:35:58 AM »
Again jrista, I don't see it. You've have no reason at this point not to adopt the a7r, it's a fantastic camera with basically identical IQ that doesn't require a full adoption. I like end results and the a7r gives a better end result than 5d3 for your landscapes.

Call it in, and hang up the phone on the DR posts. I mean you probably could have wrote war & peace with a stop wedge by now.

I think all jrista wants is the DR of the Sony sensors in Canon bodies, because the Sony bodies have a wealth of disadvantages that far outweigh the sensor (IMO at least).  You can't take a picture with just a sensor, and Sony is inferior with nearly all of those other aspects of the camera/lens.  If Canon incorporates an improved sensor in a future EOS camera, it would be the best of both worlds.

Best of both worlds is what I'm after. In the long run, if Canon doesn't drop a new sensor into their models next year, then an A7r might just be the solution. I agree that Sony bodies have a wealth of disadvantages...but, ultimately, I only really need it for landscapes...so the majority of those disadvantages (except the crappy RAW format) would really be a problem.

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #398 on: September 02, 2014, 11:41:08 AM »
I don't get it jrista. Just go a buy a d810+14-24mm and be done with it. Why continue with the long posts?

Eh, I dunno. I don't have infinite money. I can either buy a QSI683 CCD camera, which is about four grand. Or, I could buy a D810+14-24mm, which is about $5300. I also need to pick up a larger telescope, which is going to be about a grand. The D810+14-24 would eat into the budget for that as well.

Ditto with RLP - or just go get an A7r with adaptor (keep your canon glass). 

I'll never buy a Sony camera so long as they use a lossy compressed file format. Maybe that's just more of the high standards crap...I dunno. But, there it is.

But, I keep readfing your posts and can't help but think ---what did you expect????  the 5d3 is primarily an event/low light camera - that's what it was designed for and it does excel at that.  You want to do more landscapes, great, go do it - and don't be so scared to just get what you need.  What's on the market is on the market as it were.  Canon has what it has, Nikon has what it has, Sony has what it has.  Screaming at canon will not make the product your demanding appear.  Money will talk though.  If sales of A7's leap, and research finds it's owners of lots of canon glass that's buying them, that will make canon take notice.  Writing books on a forum that isn't even part of Canon is just blowing steam. 

I guess I disagree that the 5D III was only intended as an event/low light camera. The 5D II was the most popular landscape DSLR on the planet until the D800 came along. It's one of only two cameras in Canon's current lineup that really offers what's needed for landscapes anyway...large frame, high megapixel count...well, certainly lacking in the DR area. The 6D is the other option...but it lacks in the areas for all my other kinds of photography. Ironically, the 6D has 26.8e- RN, and does even better at high ISO than the 5D III...really confused as to why Canon did not put the 6D image sensor and readout pipeline into the 5D III...the latter did not come out much later after the 5D III...

seems odd to me that you so love what the exmor can do but won't buy a sony.  Why not rent it and see if you like it?  I mean, lets put it like this ---do you value your time?  Looking at all your rather lengthy posts, lets put it on a dollar scale ---if you value your time at lets say at least $25-50 an hour, just what you've posted in this topic alone covers the rental cost.  Then you can see if the lossy RAW is worse than the Canon Raw in the shadows.  Many seem to like the A7r for landscape work, and if you are right and canon sensors are so horrible then for printing big then even a lossy exmor should be better then right?  Regadless, why not rent it and see, then rent a d810 and see....if the difference for your work is that big then buy one.

 
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jrista

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #399 on: September 02, 2014, 11:41:26 AM »
I bought a D800 after reading the hype.  It was a waste of money, I sold it and bought a 5D MK III.  The D800 appeals to armchair spec readers, but few that actually use one are happy.

Really?

And you interviewed how many D800 owners to come up with this conclusion???

If you prefer Canon over Nikon, great.  Lots of people do.  But to make a generalization like that is a bit much.

Is it really so hard to admit that some people like their Nikons just like some people like their Canons?

different tools for different things man.  In the wedding industry here, the d800 took a while to catch on.  Most nikon guys I knew were opting for a d3s or a d4 or a used d700.  The few that did snag a d800 did like it for the posed formal shots, but stayed away from making that the primary camera ---not because of IQ or capabilities but because of file size.  More of that crowd is snagging d810's now, because it is a better camera than the original model, and because it's a few years later - the d4s is pricey and their d700's are reaching the end of their cycles....so they are buying the d810 now because they don't have much choice.

It's been a couple years now as well, and computing power has progressed as well. It's possible to pick up a high powered ultrabook with eight gigs of ram for under $1500 now. I picked up the Dell XPS 15 with 16gig of ram for under $2000. My desktop computer used to struggle a bit with a D800 NEF, however after my upgrade near the beginning of the year, it has no problems with them now. (I also moved to Lightroom 5, not sure if Adobe included any performance improvements for handling large RAW files.)

I don't think the file size issue is really as much of an issue before, and if it still is, it won't be for long.

I know two portrait/wedding/event photographers who both own D4s and D800s (one is picking up a D810). They have raved about them since they got them. I asked about the file size issue a couple years ago as well, and for one it was a small issue but not enough to prevent him from using the camera. For the other, it was never an issue. They both pick the camera for the scene...D4 for the higher ISO shots, D800 for the lower ISO shots.

They are well-invested in Nikon glass, no reason for them to ever switch, but they aren't unhappy with the performance of their tools for their job either.

jrista

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #400 on: September 02, 2014, 11:43:06 AM »
seems odd to me that you so love what the exmor can do but won't buy a sony.  Why not rent it and see if you like it?  I mean, lets put it like this ---do you value your time?  Looking at all your rather lengthy posts, lets put it on a dollar scale ---if you value your time at lets say at least $25-50 an hour, just what you've posted in this topic alone covers the rental cost.  Then you can see if the lossy RAW is worse than the Canon Raw in the shadows.  Many seem to like the A7r for landscape work, and if you are right and canon sensors are so horrible then for printing big then even a lossy exmor should be better then right?  Regadless, why not rent it and see, then rent a d810 and see....if the difference for your work is that big then buy one.

Well, for one, it doesn't take me long to write a post. I type nearly at the speed of thought..so... I could probably write a WOT in the time it takes most people to write one smaller post. :P

We'll see. Next time I get a chance to spend a week in the mountains, I'll rent both.

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #401 on: September 02, 2014, 11:43:31 AM »
Again jrista, I don't see it. You've have no reason at this point not to adopt the a7r, it's a fantastic camera with basically identical IQ that doesn't require a full adoption. I like end results and the a7r gives a better end result than 5d3 for your landscapes.

Call it in, and hang up the phone on the DR posts. I mean you probably could have wrote war & peace with a stop wedge by now.

I think all jrista wants is the DR of the Sony sensors in Canon bodies, because the Sony bodies have a wealth of disadvantages that far outweigh the sensor (IMO at least).  You can't take a picture with just a sensor, and Sony is inferior with nearly all of those other aspects of the camera/lens.  If Canon incorporates an improved sensor in a future EOS camera, it would be the best of both worlds.

Best of both worlds is what I'm after. In the long run, if Canon doesn't drop a new sensor into their models next year, then an A7r might just be the solution. I agree that Sony bodies have a wealth of disadvantages...but, ultimately, I only really need it for landscapes...so the majority of those disadvantages (except the crappy RAW format) would really be a problem.

That's WHY the a7r is an awesome option - it gives you a chance to get your feet wet with more res and DR without committing to a full system swtich, or more expensive, adding the nikon to your kit.  As you said,AF is pretty much useless for landscape work, so using the adapter shouldn't be an issue
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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #402 on: September 02, 2014, 11:45:47 AM »
I bought a D800 after reading the hype.  It was a waste of money, I sold it and bought a 5D MK III.  The D800 appeals to armchair spec readers, but few that actually use one are happy.

Really?

And you interviewed how many D800 owners to come up with this conclusion???

If you prefer Canon over Nikon, great.  Lots of people do.  But to make a generalization like that is a bit much.

Is it really so hard to admit that some people like their Nikons just like some people like their Canons?

different tools for different things man.  In the wedding industry here, the d800 took a while to catch on.  Most nikon guys I knew were opting for a d3s or a d4 or a used d700.  The few that did snag a d800 did like it for the posed formal shots, but stayed away from making that the primary camera ---not because of IQ or capabilities but because of file size.  More of that crowd is snagging d810's now, because it is a better camera than the original model, and because it's a few years later - the d4s is pricey and their d700's are reaching the end of their cycles....so they are buying the d810 now because they don't have much choice.

In the D810 Nikon also added a small RAW option. I really cannot understand Nikon's thinking in not offering a smaller raw in the D800, especially when those upgrading would be moving from 12 to 36 mp.

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #402 on: September 02, 2014, 11:45:47 AM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #403 on: September 02, 2014, 12:08:51 PM »
seems odd to me that you so love what the exmor can do but won't buy a sony.  Why not rent it and see if you like it?  I mean, lets put it like this ---do you value your time?  Looking at all your rather lengthy posts, lets put it on a dollar scale ---if you value your time at lets say at least $25-50 an hour, just what you've posted in this topic alone covers the rental cost.  Then you can see if the lossy RAW is worse than the Canon Raw in the shadows.  Many seem to like the A7r for landscape work, and if you are right and canon sensors are so horrible then for printing big then even a lossy exmor should be better then right?  Regadless, why not rent it and see, then rent a d810 and see....if the difference for your work is that big then buy one.

Well, for one, it doesn't take me long to write a post. I type nearly at the speed of thought..so... I could probably write a WOT in the time it takes most people to write one smaller post. :P

We'll see. Next time I get a chance to spend a week in the mountains, I'll rent both.

WOw...speed of thought....if you can type that fast I am sure you could get paid quite well just to type!....lol...Either way, I think folks here are lot less against the nikon tech than you think, we just aren't seeing the need for it as much as you because we aren't shooting as many landscapes.  I do shoot landscapes from time to time, and waterscapes, I do dig throwing a big ND filter on and turning day into night...but that isn't my bread and butter - so I buy what I need for my work.  Would I like and extra stop of DR for that stuff...sure, but, for my professional work, I actually embrace the shadow.  More than not, I will darken the shadows to enhance the mood.  For what I do, good control over off camera light is way more important to me than having more DR...
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mkabi

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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #404 on: September 02, 2014, 12:28:26 PM »
In the D810 Nikon also added a small RAW option. I really cannot understand Nikon's thinking in not offering a smaller raw in the D800, especially when those upgrading would be moving from 12 to 36 mp.

Does it do medium RAW? Its only logical if it did... have it output medium at 24MP....
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Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« Reply #404 on: September 02, 2014, 12:28:26 PM »