October 01, 2014, 05:24:02 PM

Author Topic: The Perfect Sensor  (Read 3107 times)

Orangutan

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 06:26:23 PM »
What I am convinced will happen (although it may take more than a decade to perfect) is the "light field" focusing-after-the-shot technology.

Frankly, I've got really mixed emotions about this. After all, wouldn't we all want to be able to know that that Eagle that we shot catching a fish would be perfectly in focus every time? On the other hand, will this suck all the fun out of photography if EVERY shot you take is perfectly focused and you can change the focus to anything in the picture?

What if anyone in the stands can shoot a picture of the winning touchdown pass and get it perfectly in focus, every single time?

And what about wedding photographers? Imagine all the classic shots (exchanging rings, throwing the bouquet, feeding each other cake, etc.) able to refocus and shift the focus at will.

Page after page of people anguishing over sensors and dynamic range when the biggest, baddest industry disrupting technology is sneaking up behind us.

This doesn't worry me a lot, in part because I don't earn a living with photography.  I suppose film photographers of yore could have fretted about what would happen if fancy darkrooms and chemicals weren't needed -- why then everyone could be a photographer!!  There are people now who specialize in post-processing: Photoshop all day long.  There's creativity there.  There's also the choice of subject, POV, etc.  Video and lightfield will take the timing and focus elements out of it.  Those who care enough to develop their aesthetic sense and skills will still rise above the masses.

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 06:26:23 PM »

RLPhoto

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 06:45:04 PM »
MF and LF sensors are affordable and we've forgotten about 35mm for serious IQ.

100

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 07:25:52 PM »
So, let's fast forward 10+ years to where we have achieved the perfect sensor.  It can do the following:

-Record nearly infinite numbers of photons and scale to whatever pixels you want
-Expose and record every detail in any light over 0.01 LUX
-Record in 256-bits with DR surpassing anything our own eyes can even see
-Correct any and all optical defects in any and all lenses

So...if I had this sensor, you know what I would be?
BORED.

Maybe some painter 700 years ago with a limited colour palette imagined a future with pigments in every colour of the rainbow and said how bored he would be…

He might be, but having more possibilities doesn’t mean having less opportunities to be creative. Today we have so much more possibilities and I see no indication of diminishing creativity, do you?   

The limitations of film are why so many film photos are better than most digital photos in all regards other than sharpness. 

So why do you own digital camera’s if you think the limitations of film make your photos better in all regards other than sharpness? Sharpness in itself is a technical aspect, not a creative one. Take a digital image, play with levels and curves, add some grain and you can reproduce the limitations of film if you want to. Or buy some Photoshop plug-inn that will do it for you in just a view mouse clicks.

A “perfect sensor” helps to overcome technical limits so a boring composition with blown highlights and black shadows will become a boring composition without blown highlights and black shadows but it will still be boring.

Policar

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 08:07:40 PM »
Because photos would look just like real life and be limited only by our own eyes. 

Photos are an interpretation of reality, not reality.  Light and shadows give photos depth and meaning, which is why so many HDR photos are just dull and flat.  The limitations of film are why so many film photos are better than most digital photos in all regards other than sharpness. 

The unconstrained mind is not creative.

-Jack Handy
(these are my Deep Thoughts for the week)

I disagree. The reason film looks better is because it has less dynamic range so you're forced to chase scenes in which the lighting is better, but the reason having less dynamic range in the scene is better in the first place is because...

Printed images have 4-5 stops at most of contrast.

Computer screens rarely have more than 9-10 stops of contrast.

But OLEDs have TONS more. On a perfect OLED display in a perfectly dark room your perfect sensor might look like real life. But even when we get to that screen few viewing conditions will be set up to match it, but if there were that might look like real life and it would look awesome.

Sensors are way ahead. Lenses and displays are behind. The nicest thing I've seen yet is a large format transparency on a light table. HUGE contrast ratio and color gamut of a scene with limited scene DR.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2014, 08:16:59 PM »
OMG, the levels of philosophical BS predicting the detriment of creativity brought on by better tools is amazing.

art is the product of the artist and their tools, expanding either one increases the possibilities.

+1

(not a thread worthy of more than these words)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 08:19:38 PM »
Personally, I think the more minimal range is closer to what the eye sees,


YOu'd be surprised. For the most part that is not the remotely the case.

Quote
so I agree that the first photo of yours doesn't look quite right.  Not enough contrast.  And that is why the more limited DR of the Canon sensor doesn't bother me.  Contrast is more important in both art and photography than capturing many subtle gradations of light and dark, in my opinion (and may actually be closer to what the eye sees).   

1. you can apply some more local contrast and tone mapping
2. high DR displays should be here by 2018 in full force

mb66energy

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2014, 04:32:49 AM »
So, let's fast forward 10+ years to where we have achieved the perfect sensor.  It can do the following:

-Record nearly infinite numbers of photons and scale to whatever pixels you want
-Expose and record every detail in any light over 0.01 LUX
-Record in 256-bits with DR surpassing anything our own eyes can even see
-Correct any and all optical defects in any and all lenses

So...if I had this sensor, you know what I would be?
BORED.
[...]

There is a lot truth in your idea about a perfect sensor and its influence to photographic ART.

For me the perfect sensor is user exchangeable. IMO lenses stay. Bodies user interface should be changed not too much ... But having e.g. 4 exchangeable sensors for 2 identical bodies would be really welcome.

I think about a
  12 MPix color sensor (ISO 200 - 6400 +)
  48 Mpix color sensor (ISO 50-1600 +)
  24 Mpix B/W sensor (ISO 400-25600 +)
each sensor coming with its corresponding processor.

But I think we will never see that ...
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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2014, 04:32:49 AM »

mb66energy

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2014, 04:47:37 AM »
Personally, I think the more minimal range is closer to what the eye sees,


YOu'd be surprised. For the most part that is not the remotely the case.

Quote
so I agree that the first photo of yours doesn't look quite right.  Not enough contrast.  And that is why the more limited DR of the Canon sensor doesn't bother me.  Contrast is more important in both art and photography than capturing many subtle gradations of light and dark, in my opinion (and may actually be closer to what the eye sees).   

1. you can apply some more local contrast and tone mapping
2. high DR displays should be here by 2018 in full force

Hopefully and I am shure about that - I have seen LGs OLED TVs in some shops @ 5000€ - very expensive for a 50 inch screen but ... the quality is absolutely stunning just in the well lit room. I think a DR of 16 or 18 stops is easily achievable - it depends no longer on the screen tech but the related electronics. That combined with UHD and we can see the images from 2005 the first time on a matching display system in terms of resolution and DR.

@dak723
The system eye-brain has an overall DR of 20 stops but it uses indeed two sensor matrices with color (daylight) and b/w (night) sensors and the iris for fast response. But I think a DR of 10 or 11 bits is a realistic number for one view with same "sensor matrix" and fixed iris. With larger monitors and more DR it might be interesting to capture scenes just at higher DR - let your eye stroll throu the image and see more detail after adaption. Might be a new way of artistic expression.

A simple example for the vast range of sensibility of our eyes:
On a sunny day, 12 o'clock you have roughly 1000 Watts of incident light power per square meter.
Use a simple micro LED torch with a 5mm standard white led. It delivers 20 Milliwatts and you can easily see things on a 20 square meter area (a small room's walls, after adaption). Now you have only 1 Milliwatt per square meter.
The ration between them is 1000000:1 ...
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Lawliet

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2014, 06:30:25 AM »

The unconstrained mind is not creative.

Tell that anybody who does CGI - physics, and even logic, are purely optional, yet people still create great work

LovePhotography

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2014, 04:02:26 PM »
I, for one, would welcome the perfect sensor. With the world getting crazier and me getting older, I'd like to be able to go on a super high speed internt, or buy a thumb drive of perfect eagle eye recreation of the Louve, Vatican, K2, underwater, the moon, and whatever else I'd like to see from a 70' 4k resolution TV monitor. You want to go all creative on it in post processing, go for it. But, first give me the option of perfection.
To compare, that's like saying you prefer old cassettes without Dolby because you like the hissing sound.

mackguyver

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2014, 11:59:01 AM »
OMG, the levels of philosophical BS predicting the detriment of creativity brought on by better tools is amazing.

art is the product of the artist and their tools, expanding either one increases the possibilities.

+1

(not a thread worthy of more than these words)
Okay, I'll admit it - I was trying to exaggerate all of the theoretical BS posted around here to the greatest extreme possible.  Given that I'm never sarcastic, I'm sure no one expected that :P

At least we've got lots of rumors to talk about these days, but I was curious to see how people would respond to this post...

surapon

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2014, 01:08:11 PM »
So, let's fast forward 10+ years to where we have achieved the perfect sensor.  It can do the following:

-Record nearly infinite numbers of photons and scale to whatever pixels you want
-Expose and record every detail in any light over 0.01 LUX
-Record in 256-bits with DR surpassing anything our own eyes can even see
-Correct any and all optical defects in any and all lenses

So...if I had this sensor, you know what I would be?
BORED.

Why?  Because photos would look just like real life and be limited only by our own eyes. 

Photos are an interpretation of reality, not reality.  Light and shadows give photos depth and meaning, which is why so many HDR photos are just dull and flat.  The limitations of film are why so many film photos are better than most digital photos in all regards other than sharpness. 

The unconstrained mind is not creative.

-Jack Handy
(these are my Deep Thoughts for the week)


Dear Friend Mr. Mackguyver.
From Your great Imaginative words " So, let's fast forward 10+ years to where we have achieved the perfect sensor.  It ( I ) can do the following:"
Yes, Next 10 Years , I will be 75 Years Old man with Old  Heart
1) I must have 2 Transplant of New Young Eyes to see the Perfected Photos which created by the Perfected Sensor.
2) I must have a new Heart Transplant for long  photographic trip  with the new camera with New Perfected Sensor---With out died because of heart attack---For Long Walk and -----
3) I might require a Young, Strong and Beautiful Wife to  help me carry the heavy weight  Lenses---No , New DSLR Canon EOS-M MK VI are so small like the Match Box---I do not worry about Weigh of Camera Any more.
4) my  NEW WHEELCHAIR ( When I am 75) can go any where  and fly like hovercraft.
BTW, I forget the last requirement
5) one of my body part must need a new transplant too---Because of new Young, Strong and beautiful wife---Ha, Ha, Ha---My Two legs, Which I need to walk fast , to catch up  with her walking speed.----NO, I not Dirty old man, But Still sexy Old Man.
 Just want to have FUN, and Talk with you, Sir.
Have a great work week.
Surapon

mackguyver

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 01:22:46 PM »
 
Dear Friend Mr. Mackguyver.
From Your great Imaginative words " So, let's fast forward 10+ years to where we have achieved the perfect sensor.  It ( I ) can do the following:"
Yes, Next 10 Years , I will be 75 Years Old man with Old  Heart
1) I must have 2 Transplant of New Young Eyes to see the Perfected Photos which created by the Perfected Sensor.
2) I must have a new Heart Transplant for long  photographic trip  with the new camera with New Perfected Sensor---With out died because of heart attack---For Long Walk and -----
3) I might require a Young, Strong and Beautiful Wife to  help me carry the heavy weight  Lenses---No , New DSLR Canon EOS-M MK VI are so small like the Match Box---I do not worry about Weigh of Camera Any more.
4) my  NEW WHEELCHAIR ( When I am 75) can go any where  and fly like hovercraft.
BTW, I forget the last requirement
5) one of my body part must need a new transplant too---Because of new Young, Strong and beautiful wife---Ha, Ha, Ha---My Two legs, Which I need to walk fast , to catch up  with her walking speed.----NO, I not Dirty old man, But Still sexy Old Man.
 Just want to have FUN, and Talk with you, Sir.
Have a great work week.
Surapon
Surapon, thank you for your funny post and for making me smile - as always!  I'm feeling very old today (at 37) with many serious joint problems that will likely require surgical replacement, so thank you for the laugh :)

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 01:22:46 PM »

psolberg

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2014, 07:50:56 PM »
interesting points. I agree with those that are in the "I'll take the options over the restriction" camp. Basically I see no reason why if you're given a choice, and the choice costs the same, you'd chose the one that does less. If you don't want to shot a certain look just make the software give it the look you want.

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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2014, 06:51:37 AM »
i don´t expect a perfect sensor.
I would be happy with a better sensor that beats Sonikons at high and low ISO.

 8)


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Re: The Perfect Sensor
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2014, 06:51:37 AM »