September 15, 2014, 09:28:03 PM

Author Topic: Which grass is considered greener (do nikonians complain as much as canonians)?  (Read 10092 times)

Rams_eos

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Well, first Nikon owners are not very proud of Nikon behaviour during the D600 dustgate  >:(.

Second, I observed more frequently Nikon camera for sale second hand than Canon (subjective as I have not counted them). I concluded that Canon owners were happier so keeping their camera longer.

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Maiaibing

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Do nikonians complain as much as canonians? No! ... at least not now ...
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2014, 04:31:29 PM »
Forums are used a lot for complaining about this and that. No matter the brand.

Currently the Nikon forum crowd is clearly happier than the Canon forum crowd - browse the dp review forums and take a look yourself. You quickly get an impression of the general trend. You will also see quite a lot more people writing that they are (considering) going from Nikon to Canon than the other way around.

It used to be the opposite. Like when the original 5D came out as the first affordable full frame camera - and Nikon failed to respond for years. Adding to insult when the 5DII came out the Nikon forum crowd was mortified.

D800 finally turned the tables. However, it came with some quirks that cooled initial enthusiasm. Still, with the D810 that now seems all forgotten.

jdramirez

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Well, first Nikon owners are not very proud of Nikon behaviour during the D600 dustgate  >:(.

Second, I observed more frequently Nikon camera for sale second hand than Canon (subjective as I have not counted them). I concluded that Canon owners were happier so keeping their camera longer.

Not to be a contrarian... but I do see a good deal of people selling their t3's and t3i's... and sometimes I buy them and then sell them making a profit... sometimes their demand price is practically what they paid... so they are delusional...

But all in all... I think there is a mix of both nikon and canon... but there is a resale market for both... for pentax and sony... I think you have to get really lucky to find someone who WANTS either.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

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llmogen

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I keep reading a whole bunch of reasons why Canon "should" switch to a Sony sensor for more DR, but I have yet to read one response that needs to be brought up:

In-house engineering expertise.

Canon is substantially bigger than Nikon, and as such, has much deeper pockets for Engineering R&D.  If you consider the sensor a key-component of your camera (and it is), why would you outsource it to a competitor?  (Apple & Samsung parallel with this issue) Canon most definitely is working on a sensor with On-chip ADC- we just don't know about it.  If Sony has a patent on it, Canon is doing their best to work around it (if possible). 

What happens the day that the contract between Sony & Nikon ends, and Sony triples the price of their sensor?  My guess would be that Nikon says NO, and then Nikon needs to then restart their stalled sensor R&D department, which by then has a years long handicap.  Canon plays the long game.  The 5D Mark III may not be the best camera in all situations, but then neither is Nikon 800 (now 810).  In my experience, glass is limited by physics, and bodies limited by electronics- which is why some old lenses are still made (135 f/2 was released in 1996).  What photographer wants a Canon body released in 1996?  I fully expect to replace my bodies every few years, but I don't plan to replace lenses often, even if a newer revision appears.

Besides, most people would say that Canon has a much better lens lineup than Nikon, nevermind CPS vs NPS customer service (heck, it's hard to enroll in NPS!)

The more people keep talking up Sony sensors in Nikon cameras, the more people start thinking that the sensor is the one part that's keeping them from becoming the next Ansel Adams.  The fact that we Canon-ites can entertain the idea of getting an A7 solidifes this fact.  There's a reason Nikon doesn't advertise using Sony sensors- they know that it diminishes the apparent value of the rest of the camera.

Yes, dynamic range is important.  More important is the photographer's skills, and it's quite easy to fall into the trap of 'better gear = better photographs".

Just my 2 cents!

psolberg

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ha ha. photographers in general are quite stuck on their equipment rather than skills, so yes.

Hannes

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it is much easier improving equipment than skill though so that is why most are so focussed on it.

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Quote from: llmogen link=topic=22479.msg432305#msg432305 date
The more people keep talking up Sony sensors in Nikon cameras, the more people start thinking that the sensor is the one part that's keeping them from becoming the next Ansel Adams.  The fact that we Canon-ites can entertain the idea of getting an A7 solidifes this fact. 

Very well put, quote of the week !

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Lawliet

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I'll give an A7r rental a try. I'm wary of the compression, but as you say...it can't be worse than the shadow noise on the 5D III.

Lets put it that way: In the last weeks I had both file sets from sessions shot with 5D3 vs. D810&A7r, the latter took the retoucher on average a good deal less time to get ready for delivery. Actually that costs saved paid for the D810.

Well, that pragmatic approach beats any theoretical discussion in my book... 8)

jrista

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I keep reading a whole bunch of reasons why Canon "should" switch to a Sony sensor for more DR, but I have yet to read one response that needs to be brought up:

In-house engineering expertise.

Canon is substantially bigger than Nikon, and as such, has much deeper pockets for Engineering R&D.  If you consider the sensor a key-component of your camera (and it is), why would you outsource it to a competitor?  (Apple & Samsung parallel with this issue) Canon most definitely is working on a sensor with On-chip ADC- we just don't know about it.  If Sony has a patent on it, Canon is doing their best to work around it (if possible). 

What happens the day that the contract between Sony & Nikon ends, and Sony triples the price of their sensor?  My guess would be that Nikon says NO, and then Nikon needs to then restart their stalled sensor R&D department, which by then has a years long handicap.  Canon plays the long game.  The 5D Mark III may not be the best camera in all situations, but then neither is Nikon 800 (now 810).  In my experience, glass is limited by physics, and bodies limited by electronics- which is why some old lenses are still made (135 f/2 was released in 1996).  What photographer wants a Canon body released in 1996?  I fully expect to replace my bodies every few years, but I don't plan to replace lenses often, even if a newer revision appears.

Besides, most people would say that Canon has a much better lens lineup than Nikon, nevermind CPS vs NPS customer service (heck, it's hard to enroll in NPS!)

The more people keep talking up Sony sensors in Nikon cameras, the more people start thinking that the sensor is the one part that's keeping them from becoming the next Ansel Adams.  The fact that we Canon-ites can entertain the idea of getting an A7 solidifes this fact.  There's a reason Nikon doesn't advertise using Sony sensors- they know that it diminishes the apparent value of the rest of the camera.

Yes, dynamic range is important.  More important is the photographer's skills, and it's quite easy to fall into the trap of 'better gear = better photographs".

Just my 2 cents!

This is an interesting couple of cents, but I think it's missing the real reason people want more DR. More DR means better IQ, sure...assuming you use it right.

But if you read my posts on the subject, I'm not just or even primarily concerned with the IQ. The frustrating thing about Canon's read noise is that it involves more work to deal with. Better gear isn't just or even primarily about better photographs. Better gear can allow that...bit when it comes to dynamic range, particularly the dynamic range gained by reducing read noise...it's the reduction in post-processing workload that matters the most (at least, to me.)

I can spend a lot of time on each individual image cleaning up noise. At high ISO on a Canon CR2, it's no big deal. The noise takes on a clean, random characteristic, and it responds very well to NR. My workload has dropped with the 5D III relative to the 7D at high ISO, as I barely have to apply any NR to get my images looking nice, unless I'm printing huge. The 5D III, however, has proven to be a more fickle tool when it comes to cleaning up the noise at low ISO. It has a massive amount of read noise, at 33-35e-, and is even more difficult to clean up than my 7D (which only had 8e- read noise).

Because of the loss in overall DR, I more frequently have to resort to bracketed shooting, which in turn leads to more processing in post to blend the HDR then process it in ACR. HDR merging isn't a flawless process, artifacts can be a problem, and it is often not just as simple as picking a key frame and removing ghosts to fix those artifacts (if the sun is in the frame, removing ghosts can make things considerably worse in some cases.)

More DR is often about more than just better IQ. I definitely want a cleaner, smoother shadow falloff in my landscapes...but primarily, I don't want to have to hassle with each and every photo I'm trying to make. I spend far too much time as it is sitting in front of my computer, processing images. Most of that is astrophotography these days...but it's still a LOT of work. Countless hours of work. Now that I'm back into landscapes...that's just MORE hours of processing. I really want more DR so I don't have to resort to more complicated, meticulous means of reducing noise in my images.
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unfocused

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I keep reading a whole bunch of reasons why Canon "should" switch to a Sony sensor for more DR, but I have yet to read one response that needs to be brought up:

In-house engineering expertise.

This is something I've thought about. As a manager myself, I wonder to what extent Canon management is concerned about the morale of their engineering and manufacturing divisions is they started buying sensors from a competitor, as many on this forum have suggested.

First of all, let's say for the sake of argument that Sony sensors really are better at this point in time (a judgment that is highly subjective and very suspect, since it hinges on tiny, tiny differences in just one subset of a sensor's overall performance, but that horse has been so thoroughly beaten, let's dispense with it for now)

What would it say to Canon's employees if the management team said, "sorry guys, you've done a good job but we decided to buy sensors from Sony because they are slightly better in one category that hasn't affected our sales in the slightest but it's caused a handful of people to go crazy on the internet."

It seems like the first impact would be a rush to the door by the most talented persons. They've spent countless hours perfecting products and now the management is saying, "sorry your best isn't good enough."

Who knows what would happen next? Maybe quality control would drop and Canon would ship out a bunch of cameras with sensors that have a serious oil leak on them and be forced to replace the model early and offer customers a free replacement at substantial loss to the company.

I don't know. Could such a thing happen?

Perhaps Canon, being a conservative company, figures: "well, these small differences are not affecting our sales. It's more a case of bragging rights. No one knows better than our own engineering team where we have to improve. They've done a great job innovating for us in recent years, let's hang in there with them for awhile and see what they come up with because we know they are pushing themselves harder than we ever could."
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psolberg

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Well, first Nikon owners are not very proud of Nikon behaviour during the D600 dustgate  >:(.

Second, I observed more frequently Nikon camera for sale second hand than Canon (subjective as I have not counted them). I concluded that Canon owners were happier so keeping their camera longer.

well, canon isn't proud of 1DsMKIII oil gate. listen, stop playing the fanboy card. every OEM messes up. canon will, so don't tempt karma :)

I never understood why photographers get so worked up over stupidity such as who is happier based on anecdotal evidence. who cares.

neuroanatomist

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I never understood why photographers get so worked up over stupidity such as who is happier based on anecdotal evidence. who cares.

Yeah, what matters isn't what people think or say, what matters is what they do.  People can babble on about this test shows more DR, or that test shows better shadow latitude, this other test shows higher resolution with those lenses, and that other test shows better AF performance.  But at the end of the day, it's all talk.  Actions – on which products people choose to spend their money – that's actual, quantifiable evidence with a true real-world basis and practical implications. 

So...who sells more dSLRs?   ::)
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jrista

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So...who sells more dSLRs?   ::)

And...who sold more cell- and smartphones when the disruptive iPhone came along?

Who sold more PCs when the disruptive tablet came along?

Who rented more DVDs when web-based DVD rentals came along?
 (And related...Who rented more DVDs when online streaming came along?)

Prediction: Who was selling more cable TV when the disruptive on-demand, no-commercial 4k streaming came along?
(This one is just a matter of time...cable companies have lost subscribers by the millions.)


The world is full of examples of what happens when disruptive innovation causes paradigm shifts and changes the marketplace. The companies that survive are the ones that recognize the importance of the change and respond to it, work with it, become a PART of the change. The companies that don't survive...well...they either didn't see it coming, or kept thinking "Well, hah, who is still selling more <pick-your-poison>?"

 ???

I don't want to see it happen to Canon...but Canon is like a slug in a centipede race these days...
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Canon1

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Uh oh... Broken record alert...   :P

neuroanatomist

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So...who sells more dSLRs?   ::)

And...who sold more cell- and smartphones when the disruptive iPhone came along?

Who sold more PCs when the disruptive tablet came along?

Who rented more DVDs when web-based DVD rentals came along?
 (And related...Who rented more DVDs when online streaming came along?)

The world is full of examples of what happens when disruptive innovation causes paradigm shifts and changes the marketplace.

Some good examples where the new product or service offered clear advantages that were evident and beneficial to the majority of consumers.  Sorry, but Exmor sensors satisfy at best one of those criteria, and MILCs in general don't satisfy any. 

Technology advances, paradigm shifts occur.  But Exmor isn't a paradigm shifting technology, and MILCs aren't showing strong signs of fitting that bill either.  Camera phones were paradigm shifting, having a dramatic and ongoing effect on P&S sales, and impacting dSLR sales as well. 

It's very likely a future paradigm shift will affect dSLRs in general and Canon specifically.  However, your implication (in the other thread) that Sony MILCs will constitute that paradigm shift is improbable to the point of absurdity.
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