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Author Topic: This and That  (Read 12186 times)

mackguyver

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Re: This and That
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »
I don't want to incite the flamers here, but as someone who works in the product development & marketing world, I can tell you that companys tend to listen to their paying customers, not internet fanboys, and why they are smart enough to look at the competitive environment.  That's the reason they left 4K resolution off of the C300 and why they aren't building a 30+ MP camera.

Fuji has brought medium format within striking distance of high-end DSLRs and while Canon has the resources to compete, why spend millions on R&D of a whole new system (i.e. with MF you couldn't use EOS lenses) to compete in a new space when you can (continue to) dominate the SLR space?  Also, while the internet is full of people screaming for 30+ MP, 1080/60p, 4k, 20fps, etc. the majority of Canon's professional customers (who are actually buying their gear) clearly aren't using or needing those features yet.  I'm sure they want them, too, but you'll notice that most professionals don't work with the latest bodies or lenses (unless they are Explorers of Light, etc.).  They are more likely to stay with what works, see how the new stuff works out, and then buy as time & money allows.  Canon has to reassure these pros that the new gear is not only advanced, but also reliable.  If your income depends on your gear (unlike me and most posters on the web) a 40MP camera that breaks down is worthless and a pro would rather shoot a 10MP camera that works.

Just my two cents as a technology lover, but also a realist when it comes to products.

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Re: This and That
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »

Haydn1971

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Re: This and That
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 02:41:28 PM »
I'm still convinced that the next camera will be an entry level FF 9D using the 18mpx sensor from the 1Dx, with the 5D labouring on for another year then being replaced with a higher res product or potentially dropped if the market doesn't appear to want higher res FF.   Canon cover both bases, have dual options for 12 months down the line...
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Re: This and That
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2011, 02:43:06 PM »
This statement, if representative of Canon's position, suggests they have not even begun development of a high-MP FF sensor.  That means those hoping for a high-resolution 5DIII are going to be disappointed, either because the 5DIII will use the 1D X sensor (most likely scenario), or because if there's going to be a high MP 5DIII, it won't come for at least 1.5 years.
While I agree with the 1D X sensor recycling, I read the "development" line a little differently. They're not going to start from scratch for a high MP FF camera, although the implication is they haven't made a directed effort into one so far. If they decide to go ahead, I think they could move quite quickly. I think it is more of a play down of the possibility of a future high MP model to help persuade the undecided towards getting the 1D X sooner than later.

And just to move totally into fantasyland here, what if they made a medium format mirrorless camera? Future scenario: other mirrorless players largely beef up contrast AF such that it can rival phase even with motion tracking and do it smaller than entry level DSLR, which in turn become undesirable. DSLRs only have one retreat: bigger sensors for shallow DoF. But the market is shrinking... time to go extreme? Imagine if the mirrorless medium format camera could have a mount distance shorter than EF mount. This means it could take existing EF lenses for backward compatibility with an adapter, in a crop mode. No, I don't know who would want such a thing... but it would be different!
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MRW

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Re: This and That
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 02:43:30 PM »
I love my Canons but if I have to purchase a whole new set of lenses Im not sure I will stay. I'm glad I held on to my Hassy V lenses, you never know.

briansquibb

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Re: This and That
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 02:47:35 PM »

Are you suggesting that if Canon releases a 5DIII which incorporates the 18 MP sensor from the 1D X, with the ISO and DR improvements, that no one will buy it?  I'm not buying that.  Canon's not saying no 5DIII, they're saying no high-MP FF sensor (for now).

I think this 'cut down' 1DX would come with a different model number in order to avoid confusion. The 5D range has an association for portraits and landscapes that a cut down 1DX would not meet

Call it the 3D which also brings back memories from the film days - maybe even with the eye activated focus.

thepancakeman

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Re: This and That
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2011, 02:52:47 PM »
Since 10,000 is plural, we'll use 20,000 for the short end.  Throw in a little inflation, we'll call a 5d3 $3000.  Most people buying one are likely to be buying at least 2 decent lenses for it, let's say at a mean of $1500 each.  So Canon is going to forgo $120 million in sales (exluding accessories AND all the future revenue associated with brand loyalty) to "see what happens".  I'm not buying it.

Are you suggesting that if Canon releases a 5DIII which incorporates the 18 MP sensor from the 1D X, with the ISO and DR improvements, that no one will buy it?  I'm not buying that.  Canon's not saying no 5DIII, they're saying no high-MP FF sensor (for now).

Whoa--nope not saying that at all!    :-[

What I'm saying is that Canon is not going to wait until they've lost 10,000s of customers (per the quote) before they decide to come up with a high MP camera.  I was just using "5d3" as an example because we can give a rough reasonable price-point estimate on that.  Sorry for the confusion!

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Re: This and That
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 02:56:36 PM »
I don't want to incite the flamers here, but as someone who works in the product development & marketing world, I can tell you that companys tend to listen to their paying customers, not internet fanboys, and why they are smart enough to look at the competitive environment.  That's the reason they left 4K resolution off of the C300 and why they aren't building a 30+ MP camera.
I agree this is likely the case with the 1D X where say 99.99% of internet posters about it would never buy something that level anyway, but I'm not sure that would be the case for a 5D3 level camera. That relative affordability means random internet posters could be a significant number of possible sales.
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Re: This and That
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 02:56:36 PM »

motorhead

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Re: This and That
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2011, 03:01:58 PM »
I would not want a 3D to be less "endowed" with MP than the current 5D2, that would send completely the wrong message to users. No, If Nikon do produce this 36 MP D800 then Canon are going to be forced to respond and respond reasonably promptly.

I simply don't understand why they don't seem to grasp this simple reality. Whatever they do in other areas, they must at least match the opposition in things like noise, AF performance, DR, etc. And at the moment the main opposition seems to be Nikon.

Maybe they do understand it, but for reasons best known to themselves wish to play down the fact that Nikon and Sony might have stolen a march on them.   

briansquibb

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Re: This and That
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2011, 03:22:45 PM »
I would not want a 3D to be less "endowed" with MP than the current 5D2, that would send completely the wrong message to users. No, If Nikon do produce this 36 MP D800 then Canon are going to be forced to respond and respond reasonably promptly.

I simply don't understand why they don't seem to grasp this simple reality. Whatever they do in other areas, they must at least match the opposition in things like noise, AF performance, DR, etc. And at the moment the main opposition seems to be Nikon.

Maybe they do understand it, but for reasons best known to themselves wish to play down the fact that Nikon and Sony might have stolen a march on them.   

The 3D would be aimed at a different segment - perhaps as an upgrade path for the 7D shooters

The 5DII replacement would be something else

keith_cooper

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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2011, 04:31:09 PM »
Just an FYI :-)

The quoted English version of this is based on a suggested translation for part of the interview - I don't read Japanese, the English text was suggested on the item's G+ discussion

https://plus.google.com/104131608705810814739/posts/XZcnchwy1jf

unfocused

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Re: This and That
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2011, 06:34:29 PM »
It seems as though most people didn't read the full story, but rather just the tiny bit that was quoted.

Whole story is quite interesting, although I'd love to have a better translation than Google.

Things I THINK I gleaned from the translation.

Canon is not unaware of the needs of studio photographers but that was not their target audience with this camera. It was sports and news.
The 1DX required a balancing act between pixel count and frame speed.
They are very proud of the ISO performance. The English translation says ISO 1,600 is "Beyond Comparison." They talk about ISO 51,200 and even say that ISO 204,800 will work for news photos.

It's pretty clear APS-H is DEAD. The Interview talks about how they determined that the new generation of tele-extenders and lenses perform well enough that they felt comfortable dropping APS-H and that the problem with APS-H was that there is no comparable way to compensate for the crop factor with the existing lens lineup for wide-angle shooting. Seems they figured it was easier to compensate with the telephotos and extenders.

They also seemed to be saying (and as a 7D owner I found this very intriguing) that they are watching the market reaction and may consider a professional 1.6 crop option if the market demands.

Interestingly (in my opinion) is that they make no mention of the "upsampling" idea that Canon first raised when they announced the 1DX. (As an aside, for those wondering why Canon would develop a super-high megapixel APS-H sensor and then drop the format, I believe I read somewhere that it might have been targeted for security cameras. Which makes sense to me. Need those high megapixels to nail your license plate when you run a red light)

They explained their rationale for the double-exposure feature (something I've been scratching my head over) by saying that even though it could be done in an image editing program their research showed their was some merit in being able to view the image immediately in the field.

They talked about raising the total AF performance both with the camera and with the new 300mm and 400mm lenses.

There is a new cleaning system that "burps" the dust off the sensor. (At least that was the translation)

I was fascinated by the pictures of the mock-ups and how much effort went into tweaking the design of the camera to make it as ergonomic and intuitive as possible.

They said they chose to include the LAN option because it is more reliable than wireless and for events like the Olympics and World Cup, the photographers want a wired LAN.

It appears they decided to offer wireless LAN and GPS as an add on because of the difficulty of coming up with a system that would meet worldwide regulatory requirements.

Finally, it ends with some discussion about mirrorless cameras. From what I could tell, it sounds like they feel they are competing very well against mirrorless in Japan, where mirrorless has been popular and adopted more quickly than in other countries. Didn't rule it out, but didn't indicate that Canon has a mirrorless option in the wings.

Anyway, those are my takeaways. Others may have their own interpretations and, of course, if someone can translate from the original Japanese, it would be much better.
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Re: This and That
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2011, 07:19:54 PM »
It seems as though most people didn't read the full story, but rather just the tiny bit that was quoted.

Whole story is quite interesting, although I'd love to have a better translation than Google.

*** snip ***

Anyway, those are my takeaways. Others may have their own interpretations and, of course, if someone can translate from the original Japanese, it would be much better.
Nice summary. I only managed to get about half way through the googlish translation before I had to give up!
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Justin

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Re: This and That
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2011, 08:15:09 PM »
My exact thoughts. My next thought was that I am for the first time seriously considering making a switch to Nikon. What a pain in the donkey....

They sound naive enough to not have thought this through. The 5D2 is a monumental success for it's balance between affordability, high resolution, and video. Take away any of those factors and you lose a bunch of sales. 

...we want to see what the actual sales numbers will be for the 1D X and so determine how many 10,000s of customers we might be losing if we do not introduce a higher resolution camera and if the projected profitability of a higher resolution 24×36 mm format camera will justify development, marketing, and manufacturing investments...

This statement, if representative of Canon's position, suggests they have not even begun development of a high-MP FF sensor.  That means those hoping for a high-resolution 5DIII are going to be disappointed, either because the 5DIII will use the 1D X sensor (most likely scenario), or because if there's going to be a high MP 5DIII, it won't come for at least 1.5 years.

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Re: This and That
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2011, 08:15:09 PM »

Justin

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Re: This and That
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2011, 08:18:41 PM »
I don't want to incite the flamers here, but as someone who works in the product development & marketing world, I can tell you that companys tend to listen to their paying customers, not internet fanboys, and why they are smart enough to look at the competitive environment.  That's the reason they left 4K resolution off of the C300 and why they aren't building a 30+ MP camera.
I agree this is likely the case with the 1D X where say 99.99% of internet posters about it would never buy something that level anyway, but I'm not sure that would be the case for a 5D3 level camera. That relative affordability means random internet posters could be a significant number of possible sales.

+1 The 5D is an affordable (enough) camera that people with disposable income will buy it. Ergo tens of thousands of amateur sales.

AG

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Re: This and That
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2011, 09:50:40 PM »

They also seemed to be saying (and as a 7D owner I found this very intriguing) that they are watching the market reaction and may consider a professional 1.6 crop option if the market demands.


This part was the key from what i have been hearing around the traps.

Its not a popular opinion, but there may be a possibility that Canon have decided to change their line up considerably.

For example

1D -X = Full Frame speed shooter.

5D mk3 = Could become the "video DSLR" taking the best parts of the C300 and 1DX video and putting that into the 5D3 body. Sure it won't be a C300 but it could possibly do 4K but its stills may suffer because of this.

7D mk2 = becomes the monster APS-C sensored camera to replace the older 1D APS-H, It could have all of the benefits of the 1D-X but with the Crop instead of FF and a much higher MP rate to suit....even dare i say as high as the fabled 36MP people want.

If you think about it this would cover the basics for the Pro market (sure not everyone will be happy and there will be plenty that threaten to switch to Nikon but that happens with any new announcement).

The 60D could evolve into basically what the 7D is now.

and the XXXD/Rebel can remain the profit generators that they have become.

Sure this post will be smite'd for suggesting such blasphemy buy it would make sense if Canon really wanted to streamline its footprint like they said when they merged the 1D series.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 09:53:10 PM by AG »
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

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Re: This and That
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2011, 09:50:40 PM »