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Author Topic: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)  (Read 16457 times)

funkboy

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2011, 08:10:29 AM »
I would expect more megapixels is going to challenge the skill of the user.

Joseph Holmes would certainly agree with you.

They're long articles on medium format shooting technique & precision, but well worth a read.

The summary is that merely using a "bomb-proof" tripod, using a cable release, waiting 6 seconds for mirror vibration to settle after lock-up, and using a 3x magnifier on the focusing screen is not good enough to get the full 40+ MP resolution out of a medium format camera system.

Phase One's tolerance for registration distance is 12 microns, but he's come across systems that were off by hundreds.  Joseph calculates that with this system's lenses the difference between the focal plane registering at infinity and 200 feet can be as low as 8 microns (depending on the focal length).  Among other things, he had to test *seven* 80mm lenses to find *two* that would really, truly focus to infinity at the micron level (meaning everything at 1000+ feet sharp; remember that we're talking about the mechanical tolerances of lenses in distances of microns here).  Other lenses worked out better, but you get the idea.  I'm not talking about the resolution of the glass or sensor here, but simply the mechanical tolerance of medium format lenses & bodies. 

If Joseph had to go through all this to really squeeze all the resolution capability out of a high-end hand-assembled ultra-quality-controlled medium format camera system costing tens of thousands of $US, how much resolution do you think non-professionals will really be able to effectively eek out of a mass-produced 30+ MP DSLR with even smaller pixels, mass-produced lenses?  How stable is "stable enough" from an I.S. system?  How much will the strong AA filter Canon tends to use impact the real capability of such a sensor?  How precise is phase-detect AF at these resolutions (even after calibration)?  And let's not forget that ultra-high resolution CMOS sensors like this tend to stink for video...

Mind you, sometimes Canon's approach to this sort of thing is "ship first, ask questions later" so who knows, but personally I think that they're purposely avoiding the high-resolution game as it would open up several proverbial cans of worms for them, none of which are economically lucrative for them to deal with.

Have a look at some of Joseph's samples BTW, they're truly stunning in terms of resolution.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:25:06 AM by funkboy »

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2011, 08:10:29 AM »

funkboy

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2011, 08:28:10 AM »
All things being equal, especially the lens, barring the sensor, I would argue, what your eyes are picking up, and what your brain is perceiving is the “physics” of the sensor: the overall quality… the combination of dynamic range, color depth, the tonal range… much of these take a dip in 5D II when we wander into the higher ISO range. There is scope to improve the physics of these pixels. As a Canon supporter, I see without subterfuge, guile, or pride, that Nikon has worked more on the quality of pixels and I want that for Canon.

Excellent post.  This is exactly what I'm hoping for in the "accessible to mere mortals" followups to the 1DX.  It's also one of the reasons I think they're so afraid of Fuji.

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2011, 08:43:18 AM »
I just see these ISO people wanting a 1Dx for the 5d3 price.

How about give me a 5d3 with the normal increased pixels and higher iso. I'll take a 24mp camera (30 would be great but not needed).

You have a 1Dx and most likely the new 7D2 for your needs. We just want the 5d3. 

There is already a current camera in the Canon line for your needs, most just don't want to pay for it.  We want to ensure that we can buy a current camera and not have to go down in Megapixels.

When your client ask how many megapixels, they just want to hear MORE than the other guy.  If Canon made a MF camera then high MP wanters would have a natural progression but they don't so we want 1 camera(5d3) in the line.

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2011, 09:08:25 AM »
Honestly, a tripod, a broader aperture, and a little patience can make up for a whole lot of ISO...

I'm shooting band shows, and putting a tripod on the seat in front of me or in the area in front of the stage is not practicle.

I'm already shooting at f/2.8 @ 3200 ISO. I could get another stop or two from primes, but a sensor with 2-3 more stops would make my life that much easier. Bands are not likely to make the stage any darker, so that's about all I want.

And as far as DR is concerned, what do one really actually need 37 stops of DR for? What about ND grads? What about HDR? Why about exposure stacking and masking? Or fill flash and reflectors? Honestly, my 7D RAW files have piles of DR, when I expose to the right.

Print film ISO 50 has wild DR and low noise... could this work as a temporary stop-gap?

I'm not looking for more DR, but ...

- Some lenses can't be fitted with ND grad filters (e.g. ultra wide lenses), and some can't be fitted with any filters.

- Where I live, nobody sells 35mm ISO 50 films. If I got some, say ordering abroad, the highest resolution scans shops offer is 6MP JPEGs (= 8 bits per channel). If I wanted more DR, ISO 50 films wouldn't be an attractive option.

neuroanatomist

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2011, 09:14:13 AM »
I just see these ISO people wanting a 1Dx for the 5d3 price.

I just see these AF people as wanting a 1D X for the 5DIII price.   :P

Seriously, while we'd all like a 5DIII pro-level AF ('cuz Nikon does it, right?), higher ISO, better DR, fully-sealed build, and we'd all like it for the price of a 60D, it's just not going to happen.  It's not even going to happen for the price of a 5DII.  With the 5DII, Canon used the same sensor as the 1DsIII flagship - but does anyone really think the 5DII was a 'baby 1Ds'?  No - an the 5DIII will not be a 'baby 1D X.'  Either the 5DIII will be 'handicapped' in some (many) ways compared to the 1-series, or it will cost much more. 
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RayS2121

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2011, 09:30:13 AM »
When your client ask how many megapixels, they just want to hear MORE than the other guy.  If Canon made a MF camera then high MP wanters would have a natural progression but they don't so we want 1 camera(5d3) in the line.

....We want to ensure that we can buy a current camera and not have to go down in Megapixels.

I dont' think you are in any danger of losing MP in 5d3 ...even if Canon splits the 5D product line, there will be one option that retains the same MP or slightly up it, just to keep people like you needing to tell other people your "inches" I mean MP numbers ;)


All things being equal, especially the lens, barring the sensor, I would argue, what your eyes are picking up, and what your brain is perceiving is the “physics” of the sensor: the overall quality… the combination of dynamic range, color depth, the tonal range… much of these take a dip in 5D II when we wander into the higher ISO range. There is scope to improve the physics of these pixels. As a Canon supporter, I see without subterfuge, guile, or pride, that Nikon has worked more on the quality of pixels and I want that for Canon.

I am not against more MP per se. My point was we could gain on that extra aesthetic, that “je ne sais quoi”, that non-technical “juiciness”, by working on the quality of the pixels instead of just their quantity. Peace   :)

There I was arguing about "aesthetics" and "je ne sais quoi"...but this clearly shows this is about the numbers, the "25 inch chrome wheel" I alluded to in the original post...   there is nothing inherently wrong with more MP, but increasing MP without addressing basic issues of quality is not productive. It is like putting lipstick on a pig. Or giving your granny a double-D cup implant when the rest of her face, shoulders, and stomach are sagging and she has bags under her eyes. A young, in shape model is going to stand out every time because it is more than the size of the bra.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:46:12 AM by RayS2121 »

neuroanatomist

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 09:30:59 AM »
- Some lenses can't be fitted with ND grad filters (e.g. ultra wide lenses), and some can't be fitted with any filters.

True...but a large rectangular resin/glass filter can be held in front of the lens.
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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 09:30:59 AM »

thepancakeman

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2011, 11:05:04 AM »
But I completely and totally reject the argument that its possible to ever have a sensor with too many megapixels. Yes, extreme MP counts create problems for the scientists and designers to overcome and I'm confident that they will overcome them.

When those 'problems' involve basic principles of physics, like diffraction, overcoming them may prove difficult...

While I cannot even pretend to have the technical knowledge of neuroanatomist, I guess I have a higher opinion of where science can go and a lower opinion of where it is.  Whether you're talking about the discovery of quasicrystals for which the discoverer was practially barred from scientific circles because it went against "the laws of physics" (but has since been awared the nobel prize) or the more assinine "truth" that the 4-minute mile is (was) physically impossible, science grows and evolves and changes as we continue to push the boundaries.

For example, what about metamaterials for lenses?  (Haha--now I'm just using fancy words that I don't even know the meaning of!   ;D )

K-amps

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2011, 11:55:47 AM »
If the maximum resolving power of the current L-series lenses is around 45MP for full-frame 35mm cameras then when the MP count exceeds 90MP is when we have too many MP. Why 90? Because at that point we've got enough resolution to properly sample the light and give clear definition to the 45MP worth of detail.

Kind of like how the music on CDs is sampled at 44khz, whereas the human can't hear much over 22k. The higher sampling gives better definition to what can be heard.

I may not be an expert in Digital photography, but I have spent half a lifetime as an Audiophile. If they had designed a "decent" Brick Filter at 22kHz, we would be fine. The issue was not frequency limitations, rather phase shifts caused by the brick filtering at 44.1kHz. Moving out the frequency bandwidth, merely softened the phase shift. PS: Most of us can't hear above 16kHz (maybe we could 20 years ago)   :-\ but in trying to stick to the topic, why not 135mp (each photosite does RGB ) or even 180mp for in Camera 4 to 1 binning?  :)
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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2011, 12:04:49 PM »
One of the problems with very tiny photosites is the narrow angle of view of each photosite.  Those toward the outer edges have a real issue trying to get light due to the angle of the light rays.   

Does that in any way translate to more vignetting at the corners on the 7D?
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neuroanatomist

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2011, 12:29:35 PM »
I guess I have a higher opinion of where science can go and a lower opinion of where it is.  Whether you're talking about the discovery of quasicrystals for which the discoverer was practially barred from scientific circles because it went against "the laws of physics" (but has since been awared the nobel prize) or the more assinine "truth" that the 4-minute mile is (was) physically impossible, science grows and evolves and changes as we continue to push the boundaries.

For example, what about metamaterials for lenses?

I have very high opinions of where science and imaging technology will go.  Can the diffraction limit be overcome?  Yes.  In the 19th century, Ernst Abbe (friend of Carl Zeiss and one of the pioneers of microscopy and optics) postulated that no amount of glass refinement or lens design could escape the limit of resolution for visible light, which is about 0.5µm.  Today, we have superresolution microscopy that breaks that limit (one approach to which actually does use lenses with metamaterials). 

But, I think it's likely that by the time we progress to breaking the diffraction limit, the dSLR will have gone the way of the dodo.  Picture Canon's 'wonder camera' combined with a plenoptic camera, then fit that into a cell phone - that's just one step along the road...
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K-amps

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2011, 02:04:29 PM »
About 6 years ago, the air conditioning on the roof of the building I was working in had a problem with a bearing. It produced a very high pitch noise that I could hear and gave me a headache but nobody else in the office could (I was the youngest...)

Dare I ask what your thoughts are on 96kHz audio? I've got a few SACDs and the appropriate equipment to deliver 192/96 to the amp and out of the speakers...

Exactly! I suspect that if a 5DX were to have a foveon style sensor with colours arranaged vertically rather than in a horizontal 2x2, we'd find companies doing the Sigma thing and calling a camera with 15MP a 45MP camera.

Dilbert: We live in a world where the youth of today embrace the MP3... so 96kHz was pretty much dead on arrival. The beauty of SACD was not only the 96/192kHz sampling, but the ditching of discrete paralell bits and going for a stream of data. It was just a different way of processing data, not merely an upsampled engine that CD used. I too have a few SACD's lying around, they are not bad,  the pricing killed it as well.

Going back to the topic: Looking at apple/ google, buying off companies seems to be the best way to get Patents... however I suspect the fact that the Fovean did not dazzle people like they expected it to may have something to do with it...
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2011, 04:16:06 PM »
1. People use TCs with lenses on the 7D (over 40! MP FF equivalent) and still pull in more than detail than without using a TC.

2. Even a mediocre lens scores more resolution, near the borders, on an 18MP 7D than on a 10MP 40D.

3. Some of the SONY sensors that are far denser than the 5D2 sensor actually have much higher dynamic range per sensor area than the 5D2 does.

4. It's not hard to notice the extra detail you get on distant wildlife between using 12MP FF equivalent and 45MP FF equivalent even if you insist on poo-pooing more detail for landscapes for whatever unknown reason.

4b. Not everyone can afford an 800mm lens but if you want to buy a copy for all of us....

4c. Even at 800mm it's easy to have the subject not fill the frame

5. The crazy density 7D has a little bit BETTER SNR at middle gray per sensor area than the much lower density 5D2.
 
so just sayin'

(not that I want them to go too crazy with it and be able to get at least 6fps and a crop mode would be nice so as to not fill up HD with half wasted space for distant wildlife)

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2011, 04:16:06 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2011, 04:19:21 PM »
I can't tell who's right and who's wrong about max. megapixels / resolving power / resolution, because I am not a mathematician, nor a scientist.

What I CAN tell you is my personal experience.

I have owned a 350D (Digital Rebel XT) / 30D / 40D / 1D-mkII / 1D-mkIII / 5D-mkII / 7D / 1D-mkIV

My lenses are:

24-70 f/2.8 L
24-105 f/4 L - IS
16-35 f/2.8 L II
70-200 f/2.8 L
100-400 f/4.5-5.6 L - IS
200mm f/2.8 L
100mm f/2.8 L - IS Macro
35mm f/1.4 L
50mm f/1.4 (Sigma)

I shoot approximately 175.000 pictures per year!

My experience is that the 7D with it's 18 megapixels demands the MOST of all lenses. I get better results with the same lenses on my 1D-mkIV

It is my opinion that more megapixels on a sensor makes it demand more of my lenses.

To be totally honest, I have made my most beautiful pictures with the 350D (Rebel XT) and the 40D. Both sensors have excellent design characteristics, and get the very most out of all of my lenses. They just won't perform equally as good on any of the other bodies.

I feel that Canon would really need to re-design ALL of the above mentioned lenses in order to perform up to professional standards on the 7D / 5D-mkII / 1D-mkIV and the new 1D-X

That's just my two cents worth.

Sure a 7D demands more than a 10D, of lenses and 100% micro-contrast might be a touch lower. BUT scale down the 7D to 10D dimensions and tell me which shows better 100% view micro-contrat. Scale up the 10D to 7D dimensions and tell me which shows more detail.

Only normalized comparisons make sense when trying to say one thing is better than another.

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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2011, 04:29:46 PM »
Not to hate, but from all I read, it seems people want ISO capabilities far beyond their wildest dream. How much high ISO ability does a person really need? How perfect do one's pixels really need to be? What ought a person to expect out of one's camera? Honestly, a tripod, a broader aperture, and a little patience can make up for a whole lot of ISO...

And as far as DR is concerned, what do one really actually need 37 stops of DR for? What about ND grads? What about HDR? Why about exposure stacking and masking? Or fill flash and reflectors? Honestly, my 7D RAW files have piles of DR, when I expose to the right.

Print film ISO 50 has wild DR and low noise... could this work as a temporary stop-gap?

something bright and dark all randomly all throughout the frame and sometimes clouds are zipping through really fast or trees blowing all over or someone is walking so ND grads or exposure stacking don't solve everything evne when you do have a tripod with you. Sometimes you can sort of piece together scenes that had bright and dark all over and motion, but not always, and it can take a ton of time to rescue even modestly tricky scenes like that to any reasonable degree.


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Re: A tongue-in-cheek missive to those who want a high MP 5D3 :)
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2011, 04:29:46 PM »