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Author Topic: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D  (Read 52625 times)

wickidwombat

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 01:57:12 AM »
did you buy it from a shop? perhaps you can take it back and ask to try another unti side by side. Definately seems off by alot, looks more like ISO1600 on my 1Dmk3 than ISO 200 I just checked a shot from last night at ISO 800 and its considerably less noisy especially in the shadows
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 01:57:12 AM »

EYEONE

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 02:03:08 AM »
While I've always been happy with the 7D's high ISO performance, I always thought that the low ISO performance was a bit more noisy than it should be. But I only notice it when I pixel peep so I don't worry about it. I'm not sure that it was all that unusual or worse than my old XSi.

The second shot you posted looks ok to me, but that first one does look pretty noisy. For ISO 200 anyway.
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akiskev

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 02:08:01 AM »
I think that your 17-55 may be slightly decentered. Right side is kinda soft in both pictures.

I suggest you not to worry so much about the noise levels. What I'm seeing (in terms of noise levels) is totally acceptable even for large prints.
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friedmud

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 02:27:12 AM »
I think that your 17-55 may be slightly decentered. Right side is kinda soft in both pictures.

I suggest you not to worry so much about the noise levels. What I'm seeing (in terms of noise levels) is totally acceptable even for large prints.


You're definitely right about the right side of my 17-55.  For whatever reason it only really shows at certain apertures and focal length combos.  I've kind of learned to deal with it over the years.  I wouldn't mind sending it in sometime... I was always just a bit worried that it would come back _worse_ in some other way ;-)

I do get quite good photos out of it though (note that I didn't try very hard to actually get nice looking photos here... these were really just noise tests).  You can see some of them here: http://500px.com/friedmud

Do you think it would be worth sending it in?  Now that I have a more demanding body I might be time to do just that.

You think the noise is ok?  It might be.  I'll take photos with it this weekend and then fixup a few a do some larger prints and post some back to this thread.  I guess I'm just really bothered by my inability to use sharpening with these photos from the new body.  As a primarily landscape photographer I lean heavily on sharpening to give me crisp looking scenery.  Maybe I just need to change my practices...

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 02:31:15 AM »
I posted last week to get advice on getting a 7D now... and got some truly wonderful responses about how I should take the plunge... and I did.

I got it last night and took some photos around town today.  While I was shooting around town I thought the PQ looked GREAT... I could definitely see improvements in the evaluative metering over my XSi... and shouldn't even have to mention the HUGE improvements to AF over my XSi.

Everything was going great... until I got home and loaded up those photos in LR3... and saw a ridiculous amount of high frequency noise ALL over the place... even when shooting at ISO 100-200!


Hi Derek,

I think I may have been one of the ones who recommended the camera to you last week. I'm a little surprised you're having such a problem. While I do think the 7D is a tad noisy at low ISO, I found for myself that ISO 160 seems to be great. I'm not exactly sure what Canon says about the 7D, and whether it differs from their other cameras in any way...however I've heard two things about it:

1. The 7D, unlike other canon DSLR's, has ISO 80 as a base, making ISO 160, 320, 640, 1250, and 2500 ideal.
2. The 7D IS a bit noisier than their other DSLR's (not surprising given its pixel density), and ISO 160 a -1/3 stop pull from ISO 200, resulting in a slight deamplification of the image, lowering noise, but also slightly lowering DR. (Additionally, ISO 125, 250, etc. are pushed from the previous native setting, which contributes to their CONSIDERABLE noise...avoid +1/3 ISO stops at all costs!)

This video is a helpful demonstration:
Small | Large


Either way you slice it, you should try ISO 160, 320, 640 and see how you like the results. I have not noticed any huge issue with using those ISO's, and if there is any loss in DR, its never been a problem for me. Additionally, remember that the 18.1mp of your 7D is 48% MORE detail than the 12.2mp of your XSi. At 100% pixel peeping, your looking at noise at a much finer level of detail thann the XSi. If you scale the 7D image down to the size of an XSi image with some standard bicubic, the additional noise should be mitigated against, if not entirely normalized with, your 450D. I've also found that Lightroom 3.5's NR does a pretty good job at reducing noise, and when I print at home with a Canon PIXMA Pro 9500 Mk II @ 13x19", the noise is usually invisible (and some noise is always a bit beneficial for printing smooth gradients, like a fade into shadow or a sunset sky.)
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jrista

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 02:36:08 AM »
You're definitely right about the right side of my 17-55.  For whatever reason it only really shows at certain apertures and focal length combos.  I've kind of learned to deal with it over the years.  I wouldn't mind sending it in sometime... I was always just a bit worried that it would come back _worse_ in some other way ;-)

Definitely send it in. Canon's repair service is superb, and pretty quick. I had to send my 100-400 L in once, turnaround time was about 6 days including a weekend. They returned my exact lens (same serial #), and it was in perfect condition...not a problem with it once it came back.
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friedmud

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 02:42:06 AM »
I posted last week to get advice on getting a 7D now... and got some truly wonderful responses about how I should take the plunge... and I did.

I got it last night and took some photos around town today.  While I was shooting around town I thought the PQ looked GREAT... I could definitely see improvements in the evaluative metering over my XSi... and shouldn't even have to mention the HUGE improvements to AF over my XSi.

Everything was going great... until I got home and loaded up those photos in LR3... and saw a ridiculous amount of high frequency noise ALL over the place... even when shooting at ISO 100-200!


Hi Derek,

I think I may have been one of the ones who recommended the camera to you last week. I'm a little surprised you're having such a problem. While I do think the 7D is a tad noisy at low ISO, I found for myself that ISO 160 seems to be great. I'm not exactly sure what Canon says about the 7D, and whether it differs from their other cameras in any way...however I've heard two things about it:

1. The 7D, unlike other canon DSLR's, has ISO 80 as a base, making ISO 160, 320, 640, 1250, and 2500 ideal.
2. The 7D IS a bit noisier than their other DSLR's (not surprising given its pixel density), and ISO 160 a -1/3 stop pull from ISO 200, resulting in a slight deamplification of the image, lowering noise, but also slightly lowering DR. (Additionally, ISO 125, 250, etc. are pushed from the previous native setting, which contributes to their CONSIDERABLE noise...avoid +1/3 ISO stops at all costs!)

This video is a helpful demonstration: http://vimeo.com/10473734

Either way you slice it, you should try ISO 160, 320, 640 and see how you like the results. I have not noticed any huge issue with using those ISO's, and if there is any loss in DR, its never been a problem for me. Additionally, remember that the 18.1mp of your 7D is 48% MORE detail than the 12.2mp of your XSi. At 100% pixel peeping, your looking at noise at a much finer level of detail thann the XSi. If you scale the 7D image down to the size of an XSi image with some standard bicubic, the additional noise should be mitigated against, if not entirely normalized with, your 450D. I've also found that Lightroom 3.5's NR does a pretty good job at reducing noise, and when I print at home with a Canon PIXMA Pro 9500 Mk II @ 13x19", the noise is usually invisible (and some noise is always a bit beneficial for printing smooth gradients, like a fade into shadow or a sunset sky.)


Wow - good information on ISO 160, 320, 640.... I'll definitely give that a shot tomorrow (and this weekend).

Even when I scale the photo down to XSi size I'm still having trouble with the noise... but I do understand what you're saying about comparing the XSi to the 7D.  I haven't actually done that comparison yet... but I'm still somewhat disappointed in the performance the 7D has put in so far.

Good to hear about the prints... I have the same printer myself.  I'll do some prints from my shots this weekend to see if everything looks ok.

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 02:42:06 AM »

wockawocka

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 02:52:49 AM »
It's commonly known that there is low ISO noise, and lots of it.

Great features, crap sensor.

If IQ is paramount buy a used 5D mk1, but unless you get a 1D series you can't have both I'm afraid.
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jrista

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2011, 02:55:38 AM »
Looking at your sample photos, I don't see any problem. There are two ways I think most people display their work: at very small scale on a computer screen (roughly 4x6" overall area, give or take, say 750-900px wide/tall screen size), or at moderate scale in a print, say 8x10 - 13x19, possibly 17x22 at the upper end. Its a rarer photographer that blows their work up to immense size in print.

In both of the more common formats, the amount of noise I see in your sample photos should NEVER be a problem from any practical standpoint. If you scale your photos down to a reasonable viewing size on a computer screen, you would need noise on the level of the 7D's ISO 3200 for it to really begin to be a problem, and LR is pretty good at reducing ISO 3200 noise to more reasonable levels. If you print at 13x19, you will probably find that a bit of noise is actually a welcome addition, as it really helps normalize tonal gradents in a print.

I've never had anything to complain about with 7D prints, although admittedly I have not had mine much longer than you have had yours. My previous 450D had pretty terrible noise at or above ISO 800, and I've had a couple very large multi-foot prints created from some of its photos. The high noise level at ISO 800 and 1600, which is a fair bit worse than the 7D's ISO 100 noise, is slightly visible...the worst part about it is that it affects some of the fine detail in such a large print at high PPI. To be honest, I've never expected an APS-C sensor to perform well enough for such enlargements, even with the amount of work I tend to put in optimizing the TIFF images I send out to be printed. I have been holding out for a 5D III to take care of my more extreme need to print 4 feet by 3 feet, and I suspect it will service that need superbly. The 7D fills a different need, and allows me to capture shots of birds and wildlife in action far better than either the 450D did or the 5D might. I usually print those shots at smaller sizes, and the noise is never a problem.
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2011, 03:29:10 AM »
you mentioned about shooting with apertures 7-12, the calculated DLA (Diffraction Limited Aperture) for the 7D is f/6.9 so it means that when you go to apertures 8,9,10... you lose sharpness and image quality. the 5DII has a DLA of f/10.2 and it sucks more light in because its full frame.

And i recommend buying a sharper lens so you won't have to apply sharpening at all..
That way you can keep all the IQ and hence get better images. tilt shift lenses are great because you can shoot landscapes with larger apertures and with a bigger depth of field.

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2011, 04:01:11 AM »
My first 7D seemed noisy to me as well, even at ISO 800.  I received it in the first batch made.  I returned it.  This summer, I bought a second one, a refurb from Canon using the CLP, and it is better, but not comparable with my 5D MK II or 1D MK IV for high ISO.  its usable with a ton of NR.


Edwin Herdman

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2011, 05:15:44 AM »
1. The 7D, unlike other canon DSLR's, has ISO 80 as a base, making ISO 160, 320, 640, 1250, and 2500 ideal.

Do you have a source for this?  It doesn't jive with what I've read:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=784514

Of course sensorgen.info shows the "marked" normal ISOs are quite different from the stated:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=784514

@ friedmud:  Have you tried auto ISO for a comparison?  ISO 400 in the same situations?  What you describe sounds a little bit like noise from underexposure.

Also, you should check the Highlight Tone Priority setting:  Turn it off, if it is on.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 05:20:37 AM by Edwin Herdman »

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 05:23:19 AM »
I have been wondering about all those people coming here to ask for a confirmation of a purchasing decision - where everyone on this forum shouts "buy now" - see, this is a result of listening to other people...
To a small population of patient unlucky Canon victims it is obvious that even the "best ever" 5D2 has terrible pattern noise if pushed at ISO 100-200 with sharPening or exposure push. We ARE WAITING for better days and use the old stuff like 30Ds and 40Ds and work around their insufficiencies like in an old marriage. Because the 5D c or 2 are still TOO EXpensive for what they can offer!
You just sPent 1500$ on a new "bride" to realize it is not better than the old ones...
Many users just don't want to see the noise on Canons current sensors - they are the happy ones. Try to teach yourself...
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 05:23:19 AM »

dtaylor

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 07:10:53 AM »
* Pixel peeping means greater magnification for the 7D image.

* Finer pixels also means that the 7D's noise is "sharper" than noise from lower resolution cameras even after you equalize the pixel dimensions and viewing conditions. It's not necessarily more noise and it's not necessarily apparent in even the largest prints, but it seems more obtrusive while pixel peeping. (Same thing with the D3x vs D3s.)

* I regularly make 24" and 30" landscape prints. I use sharpening, and sometimes also use NR. The prints are tack sharp, full of detail, and show no noise. In fact, I've made a few 20" portrait prints shot at ISO 800 and they are gorgeous.

* I've even got some 20" prints from cropped 7D images, surfing shots, at ISO 400. No noise on the print.

That said, there's a little noise even at low ISO while pixel peeping. But pixel peeping is like looking at a 60-70" print from a couple feet.

With all of that out of the way...your first sample does look like it has more noise then I would expect. Did you nail the exposure, or underexpose and adjust in post?

dstppy

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 08:04:59 AM »
Ok - here's one that has just received minor sharpening (what I would do for any shot coming in at ISO 200)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7011/6480510009_df4a26af47_o.jpg

And here's another that I've tried my hardest to "fixup" with sharpening and NR:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6480518429_3cd975c2a1_o.jpg


I'm with the others that suggest seeing if you can try out another 7D. 

I have a 60D and I just don't see noise like this in daylight pictures as you've seen here.
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 08:04:59 AM »