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Author Topic: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D  (Read 52562 times)

Cfunkexplosion

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2011, 02:24:50 PM »
Here are some landscape photos taken with this "unacceptable" camera. 

http://500px.com/alwaysbj182

That I can't do this with my 7D, or that you can't do this with yours, is not the fault of the camera.
 
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2011, 02:24:50 PM »

dtaylor

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2011, 02:25:11 PM »
Read again... I wasn't blowing these "up to 200%".  I am looking at the whole photo on my screen.  Not zooming at all (ie I can see the edges of the photo).  I am _not_ "pixel peeping" (I am _not_ looking at the photos at 1:1 with my screen.  Just viewing the photo like anyone would.

But you've also said you're cropping, and the mix of terminology and lack of details leaves people confused as to what the final magnification is.

The screenshot you posted that I took a look at showed roughly the same view I see at 100% (1:1, i.e. pixel peeping) on my screen. The noise looks the same as well, and while it's there, it's certainly not Earth shattering. I know that noise looks worse on a typical Apple screen with typical settings. But, again, this is 100%, roughly equivalent to a 50-60" print. No small format DSLR is noise free at that size.

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Everyone: Print is only one final avenue for my prints.  Most often they are enjoyed on high resolution monitors.

Viewing the entire original jpeg on my screen is 50% magnification. I see no noise at that scale.

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The point is that I paid $1500 and am receiving _inferior_ quality at ISO 100-200 to the camera I bought 3 years ago for $700.  THAT IS NOT GOOD.

No you're not. You're not viewing them at the same scale, and you're viewing images that, due to other issues, are not exhibiting the fine detail the 7D is capable of.

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For my purposes (and for others who are interested in landscape photography) this body does not work.

I've got a couple 22" portfolios that say differently. And I know a landscape photographer who shoots DSLRs, MF, and 4x5. He has said that through 24" it's extremely hard for him to tell the difference between his 7D shots and his 4x5 shots, and that he will grab his 7D before grabbing his FF (12 MP) for landscape work.

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I can't even believe how far some people go to justify this stuff.

Nobody is justifying it. We're simply pointing out that people do not expect 60" views out of small format cameras. Not any currently shipping small format camera. Not the 5D2 or D3x, and I wouldn't expect it out of the 1Dx either. If you actually make 60" prints, you need a larger format or stitching.

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There is no way I could keep this camera with this output for landscape photography.  The first time I wanted to do a 25% crop (by which I mean crop down to a piece of the photo that is taking up approximately 25% of the original space) of a once in a lifetime photo SHOT AT ISO 100 I would want to blow my brains out.

Do I understand you to mean that you would take a 1296x864 crop out of the full file? That's a 1.1 MP image. You can't expect to view or print a 1.1 MP image at 27". 5x7 would be about the limit if there's any fine detail.

Do you mean a 4.5 MP image? 8x10 or maybe 11x17, depending on subject and shot quality.

Do you really shoot, crop out 25% of your images, and view/print at 27"? How could you be satisfied with any small format DSLR doing this? Why not just frame the photo the way you want it to appear?

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When shooting at low ISO you should NEVER have to apply NR (or at least not much depending on how much you've cropped) and you should feel free to crank up the sharpness.  Anything less is unacceptable.

Whether or not I apply NR at low ISO depends on the subject, exposure, and how hard I've pushed the RAW file. As for sharpening, well, I'm careful about it, but definitely fall on the sharp side. Nothing I print goes without both LCE and some sharpening.

awinphoto

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2011, 02:25:26 PM »
Congratulations, that's quite impressive. But that still doesn't mean the 7D is superior to the 50D in low ISO noise. It's not. And it's even worse compared to the 40D.

The amount of noise in wildlife shots (fur, darker areas at the wildlife standard ISO 400) and landscapes (low ISO is where most people shoot here) is inexcusable for a $1500 camera. It can never be called an "upgrade" if the result is more noise.

From my personal experience working with both cameras, this is what my personal opinions are of the two cameras... I found the 50d awful and hated it so much i sold it to my father-in-law the day the 7d was announced/released...  If you find the 50d better, use it... i'm not saying you shouldn't.. you could sell your 7d if you haven't and buy 2 50d's if you wish... All I can give you is my own personal findings... A company I shoot for still have a 50D and comparing shots I've taken with that camera vs shots I've taken with my 7d or 5d2... i'd take my cameras any day of the week... but that is me... I'm not debating or telling you what you should do... I'm just stating my POV from my experience with my equipment... that's all. 
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2011, 02:26:10 PM »
Here are some landscape photos taken with this "unacceptable" camera. 

http://500px.com/alwaysbj182

That I can't do this with my 7D, or that you can't do this with yours, is not the fault of the camera.


Great shots... +1
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jrista

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2011, 02:27:32 PM »
Here are some landscape photos taken with this "unacceptable" camera. 

http://500px.com/alwaysbj182

That I can't do this with my 7D, or that you can't do this with yours, is not the fault of the camera.


Great shots... +1


Ditto! +1
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Michael7

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2011, 02:36:24 PM »
This test clearly shows the 50D is superior in low ISO noise to the 7D in RAW. I shoot RAW, and agree with these results:

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon_EOS_7D/noise_RAW.shtml

The 7D is a little farting noise pig. Oink Oink. Not good for $1500, IMHO.


I find that test VERY suspect. They bumped up sharpness for the 7D by 5! They also reduced the sharpness for the 5D by 2!! The 7D shots in that comparison are FAR sharper than either the 50D or the 5D, and the sharpening is guaranteed to enhance the levels of noise. The 7D is known to be a little soft, and usually most objective reviewers bump up sharpness in DPP by 2, at most 3, to even things out. At 3, I've found the 7D to be sharper than the 5D, so I think a fair comparison would have been to keep the 5D sharpness at default, bump the 7D to 2, and THEN compare noise. As it stands now, the linked comparison has way over sharpened the 7D, which feels very much like the author is biasing against the 7D. Its clear as day how much softer the 5D shots are...if you visually balance out SHARPNESS between all the samples, then compare noise, I think the 7D would fair a hell of a lot better, like it should.


The 7D received the same sharpening as the 50D.

jrista

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2011, 02:39:48 PM »
The 7D received the same sharpening as the 50D.

Indeed, and it is also sharper than the 50D shots. The 50D and 5D are close...the 50D seems ever so slightly sharper than the 5D. The 7D, however, is noticeably sharper than both. As I said...the sharpness should be equivalent visually, not according to arbitrarily chosen numeric sharpening levels applied in post. The noise if the 7D in those samples is greater because the shots were oversharpened relative to the other two cameras.
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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2011, 02:39:48 PM »

Jettatore

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2011, 02:43:04 PM »
Here are some landscape photos taken with this "unacceptable" camera. 

http://500px.com/alwaysbj182

That I can't do this with my 7D, or that you can't do this with yours, is not the fault of the camera.


Great shots... +1


Ditto! +1


+1

Cfunkexplosion

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2011, 02:49:21 PM »
Just want to stress those photos are not mine, just examples of what the 7D can do with the requisite skill.
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justsomedude

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2011, 02:57:16 PM »
Friedmud,

If you are truly as disappointed with your 7D as you claim you are, and you fall outside your warranty window, drop me a line via private message.  I have a direct phone number and extension for a customer service rep at Canon who will replace your body - if you hold your ground and don't take no for an answer.  I also have a direct email and cell phone number for one of Canon's regional reps - who can step in if the CS person doesn't give you the answer you need.

I'm not going to get into the flame war of "user error" vs "faulty camera" that creep into the discussion when it comes to AF and IQ issues with the 7D.  Clearly, some people have repeatable issues regardless of settings, experience level, or history with the 7D. 

If, in the end, you really are unhappy with the body - let me know and hopefully I can put you in touch with some one who will get the ball rolling with the replacement process.  Just be warned - the replacement will be a factory refurbished unit - not new.  And there's no guarantee the the replacement body will give you any better results.  Some people have glowing reports after receiving a replacement, while others have been just as unhappy with the body they were given.

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2011, 03:00:08 PM »
Just want to stress those photos are not mine, just examples of what the 7D can do with the requisite skill.

All the glory you could have basked in... hats off to your honesty Sir !
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Michael7

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2011, 03:10:21 PM »
Congratulations, that's quite impressive. But that still doesn't mean the 7D is superior to the 50D in low ISO noise. It's not. And it's even worse compared to the 40D.

The amount of noise in wildlife shots (fur, darker areas at the wildlife standard ISO 400) and landscapes (low ISO is where most people shoot here) is inexcusable for a $1500 camera. It can never be called an "upgrade" if the result is more noise.


From my personal experience working with both cameras, this is what my personal opinions are of the two cameras... I found the 50d awful and hated it so much i sold it to my father-in-law the day the 7d was announced/released...  If you find the 50d better, use it... i'm not saying you shouldn't.. you could sell your 7d if you haven't and buy 2 50d's if you wish... All I can give you is my own personal findings... A company I shoot for still have a 50D and comparing shots I've taken with that camera vs shots I've taken with my 7d or 5d2... i'd take my cameras any day of the week... but that is me... I'm not debating or telling you what you should do... I'm just stating my POV from my experience with my equipment... that's all.


I may do just that (or go to 5D II). I found the 50D superior in low ISO IQ, same with the 40D, and numerous results back that up. There's also considerable griping across the web about the 7D's nasty low ISO noise. Here's another comparison that proves the low ISO issue (post #8):

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/849338

Again, I think it's awesome that you enjoy your camera. Some folks have posted neat pics. But those things don't refute the low noise issue of the thread topic.

Michael7

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2011, 03:11:51 PM »
The 7D received the same sharpening as the 50D.


Indeed, and it is also sharper than the 50D shots. The 50D and 5D are close...the 50D seems ever so slightly sharper than the 5D. The 7D, however, is noticeably sharper than both. As I said...the sharpness should be equivalent visually, not according to arbitrarily chosen numeric sharpening levels applied in post. The noise if the 7D in those samples is greater because the shots were oversharpened relative to the other two cameras.


No ,what you're seeing is the effect of an inferior RAW file. It's been well documented that the 7d's RAW files are softer than 50D, 40D, and even Canon Rebel cameras:

http://darwinwiggett.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-canon-7d/


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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2011, 03:11:51 PM »

Michael7

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2011, 03:13:29 PM »
  Just be warned - the replacement will be a factory refurbished unit - not new. 

If he bought the camera new, and it is covered under warranty with all the appropriate documentation, why would he not receive a new replacement?

dtaylor

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2011, 03:23:55 PM »
This test clearly shows the 50D is superior in low ISO noise to the 7D in RAW. I shoot RAW, and agree with these results:

DPReview noise measurements show the 7D to have less noise across the board. They are also one of the most consistent, reliable, and trust worthy sources. It's easy to screw up these kinds of tests, and I would not take a single cameralabs.com photo test over a DPReview lab test.

The 7D and 50D are close enough at low ISO that a tiny mistake will throw the test. As for the 40D and 7D, the MP difference is great enough that most complaints stem from a failure to equalize scale or a failure to scale properly (scaling method is important). I kept my first DSLR, the 10D, all these years. It's cleaner then the 7D at first glance. Scale the 10D file up to 7D dimensions, or the 7D file down to 10D dimensions, and the difference between them is very large and quite clearly in the 7D's favor.

Pixel peeping can be misleading even when it's done correctly. When done incorrectly, it's a joke.

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Re: Earthshatteringly Disappointed With 7D
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2011, 03:23:55 PM »