September 01, 2014, 10:22:05 AM

Author Topic: 5D Mark II Replacement  (Read 28136 times)

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14021
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 01:53:08 PM »
Canon need to respond to the criticism levelled against the weak points of their current range, not myopically keep churning out the same old package with a new sensor.

Well, Canon sure didn't heed that advice with the 60D...they churned out a package worse than the old one (but with 3 more megapixels - woot!). 

I really hope they don't apply the same logic (or lack thereof) to the 5DIII!!!
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 01:53:08 PM »

traveller

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 02:29:15 PM »
Canon need to respond to the criticism levelled against the weak points of their current range, not myopically keep churning out the same old package with a new sensor.

Well, Canon sure didn't heed that advice with the 60D...they churned out a package worse than the old one (but with 3 more megapixels - woot!). 

I really hope they don't apply the same logic (or lack thereof) to the 5DIII!!!

I agree with you there. I was trying to suggest what Canon should do, not what they will!  ;)

I think we all know Canon too well for that.  The predictions that Canon Rumors has made are probably pretty close to what we'll eventually see.


Macadameane

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 02:34:33 PM »
I seriously doubt the 5D III's body will be reduced in terms of build quality.  It's just below the top tier 1D (still an xD).  I don't think it would make sense for them to only have 1 2 professional cameras that had a tough build (1D, 1Ds).  Especially when they decided not too long ago to make the 7D tough.

Perhaps they are pushing the xxD cameras' standard down a notch to make room for xD cameras.  The 7D is a great value, especially when compared to the 1D iv and company.

bvukich

  • Spam Assassin
  • Administrator
  • 5D Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 727
    • View Profile
    • My (sparse) ZenFolio Site
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2010, 04:06:09 PM »
If they really wanted to shake things up, split the xxD series into x0D and x5D  (e.g., 70D & 75D) variants.  x0D will be the mid range crop sensor cameras we all know and love.  The x5D would be nearly identical, but with a sensor equivalent to a 5D from two generations back.  So let's say this was in the era of the 5DMkIII, we'd be looking at a 12.8MP sensor, about comparable to the 5Dc.  Add $500 to the x0D price and call it a win.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 05:12:18 PM by bvukich »

Atlasman

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2010, 04:13:15 PM »
Can the centre-point AF of a 5D2 keep up with the AF in a 70-200 f/2.8 IS?

I wish such a 5D3 would been introduced last Photokina.
Especially now my 40D has gone.

I do sometimes action-photography in low-light.
Is it better to switch to a D700 in that case?
On the other hand I would like filming.

I have been thinking of a 7D/ 5D2 or a 1D4.
The last one is expensive and only APS-H.
Better to buy glass for it.

So I'm also thinking of a D700.

b.t.w.
When will there be pixel-binning for video (anti-aliasing).

about anti-aliasing.
I hope that the anti-aliasing filter on the 5D3 won't be to strong.

Early this year I shot an entire hockey tournament using the 5DMKII and got better results than with my 7D. I've found nothing wrong with its ability to capture action.

Have a look here: www.sportsmoments.ca enter the following access code: SCFC2010 (all upper case).

The big advantage is the cropping power—you can go deep and still have sharpness and detail. Of course it depends on the glass that you use.

Here's another access code for an ice-hockey tournament: SSGHMA2010 (again all upper case).

Joseph.

c.d.embrey

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2010, 04:29:08 PM »
I seriously doubt the 5D III's body will be reduced in terms of build quality.  It's just below the top tier 1D (still an xD).  I don't think it would make sense for them to only have 1 2 professional cameras that had a tough build (1D, 1Ds).  Especially when they decided not too long ago to make the 7D tough.

Perhaps they are pushing the xxD cameras' standard down a notch to make room for xD cameras.  The 7D is a great value, especially when compared to the 1D iv and company.

Canon and Nikon have two different philosophies on camera models/lines.

Canon builds consumer cameras, pro-sumer (WTF does that mean) cameras and professional cameras. The Rebel line and the xxD line were differentiated by build quality and a few extra features. The 5D line was a full frame xxD (no pro features). The 7D is a half step toward being a pro line except they have limited auto focus, etc, because Canon didn't want the 7D eating into 1D IV sales. Then we have the 1D and 1Ds lines with all the pro bells and whistles.         

From Canon's recent actions I think the 5D III will be down graded, just like the 60D. This leaves room for a 7D like full frame (lets call it a 3D ;D) that will sell for more than the 5D II.

Nikon only builds consumer cameras and pro cameras. There isn't much difference between their pro models for things like weather sealing, metering and auto focus. The top of line D3x - 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors); AF fine tuning possible and the bottom of the pro line D300s - 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors); AF fine tuning possible. Canon would never do this, they worry about cannibalizing sales. And this is why a 7D will never be as good as a D400.

BTW this doesn't mean Canon cameras are bad, just that they are different from Nikon.

Atlasman

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2010, 04:30:31 PM »
<p><strong>Time to address the questions<br />

<span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">I am getting a ton of questions regarding the 5D Mark II and how much longer it’s going to be a current camera. While I obviously have nothing definitive, there are been a few pieces of information come my way in regards to a Canon roadmap.</span> </strong></p>
<p><strong>5D Mark III<br />

</strong></p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<ul>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\"><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\"> A Q2/Q3 announcement in 2011, this is not yet decided within Canon.</span></span></li>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\"><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">Big megapixel boost, 28mp +</span></span></li>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\"><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">Continue to build on EOSHD and supreme image quality.</span></span></li>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">A variant of the 7D AF system.</span></li>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">I can’t see them not calling it 5D Mark III, the 5D name carries a lot of weight.</span></li>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">Expect it to be in the same $2699 range the 5D Mark II was at launch.</span></li>
<li><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">Obvious ergonomic upgrades.</span></li>
</ul>
<p>I get asked a lot if people are safe to buy a 5D Mark II now. The answer is “yes”, it’s a great camera today and it’ll still be a great camera in a year.</p>
<p>There is not a lot of urgency for Canon & Nikon to launch new higher end cameras in the current economic climate. Things look to improve in 2011. The 5D Mark II also still sells extremely well.</p>
<p><strong>Forum Moderator<br />

</strong><strong><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">I need a couple of forum moderators, just send “Canon Rumors Guy” a message from </span><a href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/forum\"><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">within the forum</span></a><span style=\"font-weight: normal;\">.</span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span></strong><strong>r</strong></p>


Even the 5D is a great camera. I traded mine to get the 7D and there are times when I question myself if it was a good decision.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2010, 04:30:31 PM »

bvukich

  • Spam Assassin
  • Administrator
  • 5D Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 727
    • View Profile
    • My (sparse) ZenFolio Site
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »
From Canon's recent actions I think the 5D III will be down graded, just like the 60D. This leaves room for a 7D like full frame (lets call it a 3D ;D ) that will sell for more than the 5D II.

That does make a lot of sense.  The current lineup is approximately this:

Consumer          Prosumer          Pro
xxxxD    xxxDxxD    7D1D
5D     
1Ds

A new FF would (obviously) need to be either above or below the 5D, like:
Consumer          Prosumer          Pro
xxxxD    xxxDxxD    7D1D
5D      3D     
1Ds
Or:
Consumer          Prosumer          Pro
xxxxD    xxxDxxD    7D1D
9D      5D     
1Ds

In my mind, either way, the build quality of the 5D series pretty much needs to change.  But that being said, Canon will do whatever Canon decides to do.  Everything here is pure speculation and wishfull thinking.

Justin

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2010, 05:16:50 PM »
I agree. Unless Canon tries to resegment the 5D lower in the lineup and introduce a 4, 3, or 2D.

Otherwise I expect the 5D3 to be a killer 36x24mm sensor camera with the works: AF points and speed, high iso, big files with resolution to spare, new video features and optimizations.

The camera that follows in the 1 series will be a game changer and will not compare to the 5D3 so differentiation between the segments won't be an issue anymore. The 5D3 will be everything that we wanted the 5D2 to be and a little more. The 1Ds4 or probably new name will be a beast.



Sorry, but I think you're all being way too conservative...

The specifications that people are suggesting for the 5D Mk3 are typically Canon, so I can see your points... But, Canon have allowed themselves to get into a position where Nikon have regained large amounts of market share by being far too tight with their feature set. 

9 AF points? A plastic body? Come on, what price point could this possibly sell at and not look pathetic compared to a furture D800? Canon have already made a massive error with the 60D and when the D7000 hits the stores, only Canon converts will buy it at anything like its current price. 

Do you think that the D800 will come with Nikon's old 11pt multi-CAM 1000 focusing system and a plastic body?  Canon seriously needs to up-spec their cameras or risk losing the mid end of the market, so how about these specifications:

45 AF points: 19 cross type
5 fps
100% viewfinder
dual memory card slots
improved weather sealing
HD video - I'm sure some care about the details, most don't or won't as soon as proper full-frame video cameras appear.

L-Fletcher

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2010, 06:14:43 PM »
I think it's dangerous to try and predict the exact specifications of the 5D Mark III, particularly resolution. The 60D proved that (although logically, in retrospect, it does fit).

But from what we've seen from a constant update of megapixels right across the board, on all their bodies, is that Canon is bound to increase the MP count in the 5D MK III; by how much, it's probably going to be hard to predict.

I'd say, personally:

- Anywhere between 24-28 MP
- Improved AF (chance of matching the 7D's system, but possibly not, considering the 5D range target market) system
- Digic 5 processor
- 100% processor
- 4.5-5fps burst rate (depending on MP)
- SD/CF card slots
- Maybe improvements to build, but I doubt it will be as weather-sealed as the 7D, let alone the 1D MK IV
- 1080p 30/24fps HD video (but still with 5 min limit)

Edwin Herdman

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2010, 07:26:20 PM »
Well, Canon sure didn't heed that advice with the 60D...they churned out a package worse than the old one (but with 3 more megapixels - woot!).
So what's worse about it?

It's missing microadjustment and it's missing a magnesium alloy frame.  It still has a pentaprism, has a top LCD, has a new sensor that adds more than just 3MP resolution, and they added a swivel screen.  All this in a package that's $200 less than the 50D launched for in 2008.  Yes, you lose Compact Flash - I've not heard that the 60 MB/s transfer makes much difference for heat (like in video, which it doesn't have anyway), and CF is much more expensive for the capacity than the same size of SDHC cards anyway.  The ergonomics of locking the mode dial and the wheel are controversial, but that's a design decision I think is separate from pricing.

I wrote the other day about people wanting not to pay less and get less than they want, but Canon has to set differences between models, else they would either have one camera too expensive for most to buy, or they would have a nearly infinite range of models with no differentiation.  (Would make for some confusing logistics at the factory.)
Nikon only builds consumer cameras and pro cameras. There isn't much difference between their pro models for things like weather sealing, metering and auto focus. The top of line D3x - 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors); AF fine tuning possible and the bottom of the pro line D300s - 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors); AF fine tuning possible. Canon would never do this, they worry about cannibalizing sales. And this is why a 7D will never be as good as a D400.
I think the reality is more nuanced than you admit.  I don't see Canon ever having the rather x0D-ish "prosumer" tag to the 7D.  The USA website's page for the 7D marks it for "serious photographers and semi-professionals."  They want to have an APS-C camera for professionals, not just because APS-C chips are cheaper, but because the format offers extra reach with lenses.  Somebody with a 5D or 1D series body may carry a 7D around as a second body, and Canon doesn't want to punish them for their purchase.  The x0D line has been repositioned from semiprofessional or "prosumer" to "advanced amateur," though I don't see tons of changes myself, aside from the addition of a lot of new features and less emphasis on the old points that were thought to constitute a "pro" camera but which weren't adding new functionality (i.e. the magnesium alloy body) or advertising bullet points.

Other than that, I don't see your autofocus comparison providing your argument much support.  Number of AF points has seemed to be going in Nikon's direction for a while - compare the D7000 and the Canon 60D, for example; the number and types of AF points was seen as a point in the D7000's favor there.

For Nikon's part, their USA website shows five tiers of cameras, with the D3x00 couple at the bottom.  Perhaps they do fit cameras with just two levels of finish, but they sure don't spec and price them in just two tiers.  The differences between the lower-end models in particular are quite varied.

The camera that follows in the 1 series will be a game changer and will not compare to the 5D3 so differentiation between the segments won't be an issue anymore. The 5D3 will be everything that we wanted the 5D2 to be and a little more. The 1Ds4 or probably new name will be a beast.
I wouldn't be surprised if these new cameras you speak of just add some new features from the recent consumer releases, like the swivel screen from the 60D, in a body that otherwise has modernized specifications over their predecessors.  The one obvious wild card is the idea of a 3D camera, which would be an obvious choice for a "3D" moniker, but I don't care about that and a lot of other folks don't, either.  There's also the possibility of a mirrorless or semi-transparent (like the Sony Alpha A-55) camera but those strike me as again consumer-oriented cameras (at least at the beginning), even if they are EF compatible.

Edwin Herdman

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2010, 07:34:50 PM »
I'd say, personally:

- Anywhere between 24-28 MP
- Improved AF (chance of matching the 7D's system, but possibly not, considering the 5D range target market) system
- Digic 5 processor
- 100% processor
- 4.5-5fps burst rate (depending on MP)
- SD/CF card slots
- Maybe improvements to build, but I doubt it will be as weather-sealed as the 7D, let alone the 1D MK IV
- 1080p 30/24fps HD video (but still with 5 min limit)
I'm looking for it to be in the 30MP+ range actually.

Otherwise that looks pretty solid.  8 FPS bursts would be good, but I feel this is stretching the as-yet-unseen-DIGIC V a bit much :)  I share your concerns about the AF specification, though it feels safe to say it will at the very least match the 60D in autofocus - and the 60D is (per Osiris) said to be pretty good in that regard.  AF sensor size differences aside, there doesn't seem to be a reason it should stick with the current underwhelming and outdated AF specification, nor why a camera $1000 more than the 7D should have inferior AF.  After all, there's a lot of difference between the 1D / 1Ds cameras, with the 1D Mark IV having 45 autofocus points, and the 7D.  Those are also 1.3x crop cameras, and they are better suited to telephoto and journalism applications - not to mention event photos, I'd think, so if Canon wants to differentiate, that's a reasonable place to start, rather than gutting the AF sensor of a 5D Mark III.

I am rather hoping 1080p is more than five minutes.  They ought to have an improved codec, as well as a 60FPS mode.  24 and 30 FPS modes for 720p would be a good idea as well (why they've been cutting 30fps from their other cameras is beyond me - it's almost like they're sending a signal not to use the camera for video and to use a camcorder instead, but...but...)  It may have an SDXC slot in addition to CF, which could bode well for video run times.

L-Fletcher

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2010, 07:43:32 PM »
I'd like to see SD card slots in the 5D MK III (I use SD cards for my smaller bodies), but it's quite possible that Canon will ignore it, like it did with the 7D.

I have no doubt, actually, that the 5D MK III will have 28-32MP, but personally I'm looking for not much more than 24-28MP.

I made a mistake when I mentioned the 5 minute limit - it should be 12 minutes (29 min total cut off). And it won't change, probably, due to the CF limits being its reason.

My actual predictions (realistically speaking):
- 28 to 32 MP
- Digic V processor
- Improved AF with 9-point focusing system
- 100% viewfinder
- 1080p at 24/25/30fps HD video (with 12 min. limit for 1080p)
- Dual CF card slots
- 4.5fps burst rate
- same magnesium-alloy body, no additional build improvements/weather-sealing (as the 5D MK II is already equal to the 7D in terms of weather-sealing)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 09:31:13 PM by L. Fletcher »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2010, 07:43:32 PM »

c.d.embrey

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 432
    • View Profile
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2010, 08:53:48 PM »
Nikon only builds consumer cameras and pro cameras. There isn't much difference between their pro models for things like weather sealing, metering and auto focus. The top of line D3x - 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors); AF fine tuning possible and the bottom of the pro line D300s - 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors); AF fine tuning possible. Canon would never do this, they worry about cannibalizing sales. And this is why a 7D will never be as good as a D400.

I think the reality is more nuanced than you admit.  I don't see Canon ever having the rather x0D-ish "prosumer" tag to the 7D.  The USA website's page for the 7D marks it for "serious photographers and semi-professionals."  They want to have an APS-C camera for professionals, not just because APS-C chips are cheaper, but because the format offers extra reach with lenses.  Somebody with a 5D or 1D series body may carry a 7D around as a second body, and Canon doesn't want to punish them for their purchase.  The x0D line has been repositioned from semiprofessional or "prosumer" to "advanced amateur," though I don't see tons of changes myself, aside from the addition of a lot of new features and less emphasis on the old points that were thought to constitute a "pro" camera but which weren't adding new functionality (i.e. the magnesium alloy body) or advertising bullet points.

Other than that, I don't see your autofocus comparison providing your argument much support.  Number of AF points has seemed to be going in Nikon's direction for a while - compare the D7000 and the Canon 60D, for example; the number and types of AF points was seen as a point in the D7000's favor there.


The comparison is very simple.

The APS-C Canon 7D "19-point all cross-type AF (f/2.8 at center: Dual Cross Sensor)." The Canon 1D IV "All 45 AF points are horizontal-line sensitive at f/5.6 (vertical). Thirty-nine of the 45 AF points are vertical-line sensitive at f/2.8 for cross-type focusing."

The Canon 7D does not use the same focusing as the Canon 1D IV.

The 5D II "9 AF Points (1 Cross Type) + 6 AF Assist Points." The 1Ds III "45-point (19 high-precision cross-type AF points plus 26 Assist AF points)"

The Canon 5D II doesn't use the same focusing as the 1Ds III.

On the Nikon side the APS-C D300s, the full frame D700,  full frame D3s and the $8000.00 full frame D3x all use the same 51 point focusing.

What's so hard to understand? Canon down grades the focusing for their lower cost cameras, Nikon doesn't. Simple as that!

The above may make little or no difference to you. Many 5D II shooters only use the center focus point.








richy

  • Guest
Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2010, 09:40:16 PM »
Canon make cameras around all the same price points as nikon, ergo the whole nikon don't make prosumer cameras thing is just marketing. The 300 \ 700 is in the same ballpark as the 7d \ 5d. Nikon just market differently.

Re the AF, yup but did nikon put the d3x sensor in the d700? They put their 'lower end pro(if that makes sense)' sensor in. So canon put a sensor from a body that costs 8k into the 5d2 yet nikon only put a sensor from a 4-5k body in their d700. That is why canon scuppered the AF. Also the AF motors in the d700 aren't as fast as the d3. Minor difference but it is there, else why would anyone buy a d3? For the d3\d3x and 1ds4 to sell for 2-3x the price as the d700&5d3 they have to be significantly better. Nikon chose not to put their best sensor in the d700, canon chose not to put their best AF in the 5d2. Want to shoot sports on a canon, prior to the 7d just get a 1d2 or 1d3 used. Want to shoot landscapes on a nikon, stitch. Both makers had to down spec their 'mid range \ pro sumer \ its pro honestly' cameras otherwise it would kill sales of their top lines.

I would love to see truly crazy specced cheap cameras, and specs do evolve, but pining for a $2500 camera thats an amalgam of all the best parts of $4000 and $8000 cameras seems a little optimistic :) I would love it, it would slash my capex, but really, put yourself in the position of trying to sell that to canons board. Yeah I want to completely destroy the sales of our two flagship cameras by drastically undercutting them in price whilst offering virtually all the same features.

A decent amount of money for canon comes from pro's, probably not as much as from rebels, but we still spend 10-40k a year probably each. They know we will make purchases mostly based on a business case. There would be virtually no business case for a 1ds4 if the 5d3 was that good. I truly wish it was, because it either means I get a great camera cheap, or the 1ds4 has to come with dancing girls and a lifetime supply of la grande annee. Either way its all good. 

I just canon would grow a pair and release their roadmap for a rolling 12 months. It wouldn't be fast enough for nikon to react to as cameras can take 24-36 months to come to market, and it would allow pros to budget during and between financial years which is important.

Take care :)

PS- I wish they would sell a more expensive 7d and 5d2 with the 5 minute video thing removed. Crazies. I know its to protect their video line. But I don't want to carry extra stuff and having both in one makes sense even if it costs more.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D Mark II Replacement
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2010, 09:40:16 PM »