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Author Topic: Hoping for a Entry level FF  (Read 7725 times)

LimeTapse

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Hoping for a Entry level FF
« on: December 10, 2011, 09:18:12 PM »
I think Canon would be smart to introduce a $1800 FF for the many that want to move up from APC (in my case a 50D).  I want great low light IQ. And do it soon please!

Its clear Canon is willing to sell a $2000 FF and I saw a thread on here about how FF sensors do not cost that much more than APC sized.  So maybe they will produce....

A "5DMIII" with 28 - 36 MP FF, better AF than the MII, ~6- 7 FPS, a little better build than 5DMII, Dual Digic 5- $3500 - 1.5 stops better ISO than 5DMII

A "6D" (or "70D") with 18 MP FF, 60D AF and 3.5 FPS, 60D build (but WITH AFMA) Digic 5- $1800 - 2 Stops better ISO than 5DMII

The reasoning - you want to lock in anyone transitioning from APC > FF because that is a natural point to consider changing systems because many lenses owned by APC users will not work (or will not be nearly as sharp) on FF.  You get people to go Canon FF, you lock them in with EF lenses going forward.

I am not going to pay more than 2K for a FF.  I do not want to switch systems but some in my place might.

If Canon doesn't come out with my option soon I and everyone else in my boat could get a 5DMII and wait a year but that would be frustrating (having to sell and buy again), knowing they have great low-light sensor coming in March.

Another option is sell my 50D for $375 and get a T2i for the year/year-and- a-half wait and have improved IQ over what I have now for $200 out of pocket (and I could spend the other $1800 I have saved now on another expensive hobby I have)!

When an affordable lower light/higher ISO FF arrives I can keep the T2i as a backup/ long-reach to use with my 1.4 TC and my 70-200 4 IS in low ISO situations.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 09:20:20 PM by LimeTapse »

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Hoping for a Entry level FF
« on: December 10, 2011, 09:18:12 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 09:33:50 PM »
They still will have to differentiate that affordable FF from the 5DIII, just as they must differentiate the 5DIII from the 1D X.  In your example, I think you've either over spec'd or underpriced your 5DIII.  Your list sounds more like a $4-4.5K body, might be a 5DIII, might be a 4D.  Also, Canon might just put the 18 MP 1D X sensor in the 5DIII.  They could also use it in a 6D like you propose as well (3 lines like the current 18 MP APS-C). But for an $1800 FF camera, expect slightly less than 60D build, 3 fps, current 5DII AF, and no AFMA.  Keep in mind - that affordable FF will be designed to attract Rebel/xxxD users, and to a lesser extent xxD users.  Most xxD and 7D users would be expected to move to the 5DIII.
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jrista

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 09:58:54 PM »
I think it might be tough to produce a pro-grade FF camera, even if its bottom-rung pro-grade (i.e. xD), for under $2000. Part of the reason FF sensors cost so much, (and part of the reason MF digital sensors are only found in $10k-$60k cameras) is that they consume a LOT more silicon wafer space than smaller sensors. You can make about four APS-C sensors for a single FF sensor, not to mention the fact that defects in the wafer itself can cost a lot more as well, as a single tiny defect effectively ruins a whole sensor. With APS-C, you might lose one or two sensors to a defect, but thats still HALF of a single FF sensor.

The materials used to manufacture wafers and the systems that etch them are becoming much more valuable in this day and age as well, where electronics are orders of magnitude more important on a global scale than they were a decade ago. Many of the materials used in electronics are very rare (rare earth metals and the like), and there are few providers for such materials. China was a huge exporter of rare earths and other commodities used in electronics, however they have been holding onto supply for their own internal uses and rumoring they will cut it off completely, which has been driving prices through the roof (which is actually good news for some upstart American rare earth miners!) I think it would be surprising to see the 5D III remain at $2500 if this trend continues, and I wouldn't expect a cheaper sibling to break out below $2000, if it happened at all.

Maintaining profit margins is extremely important for an innovative company like Canon that has a large R&D sector...those profits are banked towards future innovation and investment in continued R&D, which just means more competition and better tech in the future for us consumers.
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psycho5

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2011, 10:27:21 PM »
An entry level FF for $1800? Who would buy the 7D2 when it comes out?

hey, i'm crossing my fingers too, but more realistically the price may be $2500 for body only. If I had the power to restructure Canon's lineup it would be this:

1Dx   -  $6800 (body only) pro FF
5D3   -  $3999 (body only) 36mp studio/wedding camera
6D     -  $2500 (body only) entry level FF with 1Dx sensor, 7D AF, 6fps burst mode, 100% VF, swivel screen
7D2   -  $1599 (body only) pro 1.6x crop body, same as current 7D w/ better sensor, swivel screen
70D   -  $999   (body only) entry level crop body
REBEL-  $599   (body only) consumer point and shoot w/ EF, EF-S lens capability.

EOBeav

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2011, 10:48:24 PM »
Right now, you have to spend 2.5 grand (msrp) to get into a full frame Canon. A lot of people...including me...are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to make that happen (anybody need a kidney?). 

Canon knows that, so I don't think we're going to see a FF much below that price point, unless I'm terribly mistaken.
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briansquibb

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2011, 10:54:52 PM »
Buy a used 5DII or for real quality budget - a 5D classic

Richard8971

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2011, 11:00:47 PM »
Buy a used 5DII or for real quality budget - a 5D classic

I couldn't agree more! The 5D is an awesome camera and I continue to hear great things about it. You can find 5D's for about $900-$1100 in great shape. 12.9MP? PLENTY!!! I would love to have a 5D in my collection!

D
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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2011, 11:00:47 PM »

niccyboy

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 11:06:44 PM »
I quite like the build quality of the 5d2.

I think introducing a cheaper full frame will mean they need to remove one of the crops.

1100
600
60
7
(entry FF)
5d2/3
1dx

That's a lot of bodies and with 60d, 7d, and the entry level trying to get the prosumers it means one of them or all of them overall will suffer sales wise.

But what do we know!! Canon are quite unpredictable.

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 11:33:17 PM »
An entry level FF for $1800? Who would buy the 7D2 when it comes out?

hey, i'm crossing my fingers too, but more realistically the price may be $2500 for body only. If I had the power to restructure Canon's lineup it would be this:

1Dx   -  $6800 (body only) pro FF
5D3   -  $3999 (body only) 36mp studio/wedding camera
6D     -  $2500 (body only) entry level FF with 1Dx sensor, 7D AF, 6fps burst mode, 100% VF, swivel screen
7D2   -  $1599 (body only) pro 1.6x crop body, same as current 7D w/ better sensor, swivel screen
70D   -  $999   (body only) entry level crop body
REBEL-  $599   (body only) consumer point and shoot w/ EF, EF-S lens capability.

This is what I'd like to see (but admittedly pretty unrealistic):

1M  -  $15k 60+MP MF
3M  -  $10k 40+MP MF
1Dx  -  $7k 18MP FF Top Speed(12/14fps) Top AF
3D  -  $5k 1Dx Sensor Decent Speed 6/7fps Good AF (7D1/2 Level)
5D3  -  $3.5k 30+MP FF 4/5fps Decent AF (7D1 level, but not as many modes)
6D  -  $2.5k 1Dx Sensor 4/5fps Ok AF (5D2 or better)
7D2  -  $1.8k Improved 18MP Sensor 6/7fps Slightly Improved AF
 - Here down are pretty much as you know them -
70D  -  $1.2k 7D2 Sensor
Txi  -  $1k 7D2 Sensor
Tx  -  $700 7D Sensor

Granted, this is deeper than I think we'd ever actually see the Canon DSLR line.  But it would be nice.  There is a clear progression for nearly any type of shooter.  The only jump that would really hurt is the 5D3 to 3M progression.  Maybe they could be nice and have and official EF to MF adapter, and a FF crop mode.  And please Canon, if you go MF, either use an existing mount, or a short register so adapters are feasible.

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 11:42:26 PM »
I think it might be tough to produce a pro-grade FF camera, even if its bottom-rung pro-grade (i.e. xD), for under $2000. Part of the reason FF sensors cost so much, (and part of the reason MF digital sensors are only found in $10k-$60k cameras) is that they consume a LOT more silicon wafer space than smaller sensors. You can make about four APS-C sensors for a single FF sensor, not to mention the fact that defects in the wafer itself can cost a lot more as well, as a single tiny defect effectively ruins a whole sensor. With APS-C, you might lose one or two sensors to a defect, but thats still HALF of a single FF sensor.

The materials used to manufacture wafers and the systems that etch them are becoming much more valuable in this day and age as well, where electronics are orders of magnitude more important on a global scale than they were a decade ago. Many of the materials used in electronics are very rare (rare earth metals and the like), and there are few providers for such materials. China was a huge exporter of rare earths and other commodities used in electronics, however they have been holding onto supply for their own internal uses and rumoring they will cut it off completely, which has been driving prices through the roof (which is actually good news for some upstart American rare earth miners!) I think it would be surprising to see the 5D III remain at $2500 if this trend continues, and I wouldn't expect a cheaper sibling to break out below $2000, if it happened at all.

Maintaining profit margins is extremely important for an innovative company like Canon that has a large R&D sector...those profits are banked towards future innovation and investment in continued R&D, which just means more competition and better tech in the future for us consumers.

This really says it all. Well written and explained. :)

Kind of like computer CPU's and LCD screens, the technology will improve as well as get cheaper to produce. Considering how DSLR's have improved/gotten cheaper over the past 10 years, it has truly been leaps and bounds. Who knows what the next 10 will bring.
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thejoyofsobe

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2011, 12:26:37 AM »
New 5D2's are going for $2099 on Adorama right now. So I think it's definitely doable that a full frame camera could sell new for sub-$1800.

When the 5D3 hits why not just keep selling the 5D2 at a significantly lower price than its current MSRP? Let that be your entry level FF. I mean we're almost up to the announcement of the Rebel t4i and I am still able to buy new Rebel t2i bodies from Canon and for a while you could still buy 1D3 for a long time after 1D4's became available so it's not like it's without precedent. The 5D3 should have all those wonky AF issues resolved, higher FPS, Digic 5, more megapixels and better video capabilities to convince professionals to upgrade as long as the price isn't ridiculous.

the 7D makes a lot of sense if you're a sports or wildlife shooter. but for those non-pros who don't demand their cameras to track birds in flight or need a high FPS there's not a lot of incentive currently to spend more than what it costs for a t2i because it's already got as good a sensor as you'll get from Canon shy of full frame for $1000 less than the 7D. make a 5D2 available at a decent price and I imagine for those portrait, landscape, architecture, video and lowlight shooters currently using the current generation of APS-C cameras and can't afford the 5D3 there'd be an incentive to go with the 5D2 whereas there'd be little incentive to upgrade until the XXD and XXXD lines inherit their tech from the expected 7D2.

folks who couldn't justify paying a premium the raw power of 7D might just have an incentive to pay for an entry-level FF camera. like it was mentioned earlier, switching from APS-C to FF also means these folk are likely going to replace unusable EF-S lenses for the more expensive EF lenses. sounds like a way for Canon to make more money charging money for a 4 year camera for which R&D had recouped its costs LONG before and on people replacing their EF-S lenses.

while i guess it might no longer be a 5D2 at that point, if you keep the guts the same and put an articulated LCD on one I'd certainly consider it over staying APS-C.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 01:06:53 AM by thejoyofsobe »

obyphotography

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2011, 03:21:43 AM »
I've tried both the options: 7D + 10-22 and 5DII with the 16-35II. If we talk about  landscape photography 5DII is unbeatable by 7D with any lens in term of colours match, details, gamma ratio. So, like other people already suggest to you, don't wait for 5DIII! 7D + 10-22 was not bad but I preferred more and more the combination of 7D+ Sigma 8-16 for landscapes.

The limits of the 5DII are the autofocus and shutter speed, but both of them are critical in sport and wildlife photography only.

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 09:42:00 AM »
The limits of the 5DII are the autofocus and shutter speed, but both of them are critical in sport and wildlife photography only.

I think you mean frame rate.  The 5DII can achieve 1/8000 s shutter speed as can every other current xD and xxD body.
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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 09:42:00 AM »

alipaulphotography

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2011, 09:50:57 AM »
5D original. Full frame for about the same price as a 60D. There is your entry level full frame camera right there.

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2011, 10:08:52 AM »
Not sure where someone saw Adorama selling NEW 5D MKIIs for $2099 on Adorama, the refurb sells for $2199 when I looked 5 minutes ago.

I agree with others that a for that wishlist provided, that $1800 seems low, as well as for the person suggesting that the 7D MKII would be $1599, don't see that as long as the 7D is currently in that range after dropping. 

I expect the 5D MK III to be more of the $2800 range body only new and the next 7D MK II to be in the $1900 range.  I also don't expect any of these two to be on the shelves until summer at best. 

For entry level FF, there may be, Canon may come out with one, but I still expect that to be $2000 plus, most likely $2100... basically you want entry FF you pay $2K, you want more Pro level you pay closer to $3K and into the 5D MKIII.  The 7D MKII will be slightly cheaper, have a little better AF and a little faster burst... So 7D line will be Top-Crop great for sports and active, a little less on ISO, and the 6D would be more portrait, better ISO.  Then again... Canon could also be very fine leaving the 7D line as Top Crop and the 5D really as the entry.  No sense canibalizing, and a too capable Entry FF may hurt the 7D line

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Re: Hoping for a Entry level FF
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2011, 10:08:52 AM »