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Author Topic: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights  (Read 32611 times)

Arkarch

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »
And I concur with you that you will be wrong ;)

And I'll have a 1DX in my bag.

(if the 5DMark III is 2013 release)

So we both win! :D 
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2011, 06:10:00 PM »

traveller

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2011, 06:11:03 PM »
Nice catch.  I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.

If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 

Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press. 

CES is not the only big show next year, there's Photokina at the end of September; traditionally, this has been the more important show (compared to the old, pre-CES integrated PMA) for announcing higher-end cameras. 

michael6liu

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2011, 06:17:17 PM »
The 5D3 will not be above $3k.

The 1Dx is a pro only tool, so it's priced accordingly.  But the 5d3 will be pros/semi-pros who buy it.  What happen since the 5d2 was planned and came out. The economy crashed and still hasn't recovered.

Curiously, the 5D2 was announced in September of 2008, right in the middle of the first big recent crash. Up until a few months ago, its price was steady at around $2599. Thus it could be said that the status of the economy had little to no impact on the ability of Canon to sell the 5D2.

Quote
The 5d3 will be right around $2500-2750.

I'm holding out for Canon to break the $2000 price barrier with the MSRP of the 5D3.

Recall that in other comments on this website that someone from Canon said that their biggest problem in engineering was bringing in all of the requisite features at the correct price point.

So ask yourselves, what price point would Canon be designing the 5D3 for? $3000? $2500? $2000?

The Sony Alpha 900 was the first full-frame camera to be sold at under $2000 but didn't really take off. With all of the excitement around the NEX and latest A65/A77, it is going to be a completely different story for the A9X and I can't see why Sony would price it higher. Sony wants to disrupt the stranglehold on the FF DSLR market that Canon/Nikon have and the best way for them to do that is with good quality, compelling features and a very attractive price. If Sony's latest announcements are anything to go by then Sony will deliver on all three fronts. We can pretty much forget about there being new compelling features in a 5D3 because that just isn't how Canon do camera design. So what's left? Quality & price. Consider that the 24MP APS-C sensor from Sony is delivering excellent IQ for the NEX-7. Given that the FF sensor for the A9X is going to have bigger pixels than that, it stands to reason that the A9X will have IQ that is at least as good as the NEX-7, if not better. So if Canon are insistent on delivering an 18MP 5D3, expect it to be the cheapest (or close to) FF DSLR announced in 2012 and for the feature set in it designed to deliver that price.

I would not hold my breath for 5dIII to be $2000. It will be around $2500-3000 when released. The recent price drop on 5dII has more to do with retailers during holiday season than anything. It might even go up slightly early next year until 5dIII announcement. Hopefully around CES, but more likely to be Photokina.

Sony is showing some promising results from the NEX7 but that is just one mirroless camera with a crop sensor. There are a couple of hurdles Sony needs to pass first before they can challenge Canon & Nikon:
1. Fix A77. If anything, the A77 (APS-C sensor) proves Sony is lacking in one area or the other when it comes to producing a conventional DSLR. That translates into a big unknown for their full-frame DSLR.
2. Get the lenses on par with Canon & Nikon. What's a camera system without proper lenses to max out its potential? At this moment, NEX7 is heavily relying on lenses manufactured by others, like Leica. It is accetable for now with an adapter but what does that tell you about Sony as a brand? Is that the kind of company people wanna invest money into? There's no easy way to do this and it will take a long time.

Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side. Just like the CPU racing between AMD and Intel, AMD came up strong at one point but seems to have dialed down a bit these days. Nevertheless, the end result is that competition has created a whole bunch of happy consumers :).

Quote
If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 

Agreed. Besides, every kit lens so far has IS.

Arkarch

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2011, 06:36:01 PM »
Nice catch.  I am expecting a "hard bundle" for the first shipments and a new 24-70L would make a bunch of sense.

If a 24-70 f/2.8L replacement is announced next year, then it will probably initially be made available to 1D X buyers only, but I can't see it bundled with a 5D Mk.II replacement -it would be too expensive. 

You may be right about that.  But what a way to introduce in a two-for-one; and really, it is one of major workhorse lenses 5D owners will likely have.

Personally I still want a 17-40 bundle (or 16-35 if that made bundling sense) to replace my 10-22 when I finally go FF.   I got the 24-105 already, like I need another one just to buy the camera.
 
Canon needs a major announcement at CES.  Its the biggest spotlight of the year and the one that attracts gobs of press. 

CES is not the only big show next year, there's Photokina at the end of September; traditionally, this has been the more important show (compared to the old, pre-CES integrated PMA) for announcing higher-end cameras.

That Canon is co-op marketing flyers in regional markets with the 7D and 5DMarkII suggests that Canon sees them partially as a consumer (or at very least semi-pro) offering.  Both shows arguably make sense - but CES is the bigger bang for the wider press coverage imo - you can get a Canon 5DMarkIII on CNET, CNBC, Today Show etc - and they can then may sneak a mention new lenses and the 1DX into that (though arguably the point-n-shoots will still attract the most attention).      At the same time, I can not see the 1DX or C300 making any sort of press dent at CES, other than as a "what you can aspire to" trophy - much more of a Photokina / hard industry-only item.

Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side. Just like the CPU racing between AMD and Intel, AMD came up strong at one point but seems to have dialed down a bit these days. Nevertheless, the end result is that competition has created a whole bunch of happy consumers :).

Agreed.  Sony has a mountain to climb; so they need to be competitive.  And they have lots of convincing to get me to part with a lens investment.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 06:45:20 PM by Arkarch »
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JR

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2011, 07:39:49 PM »
So all this could seem consistant with some other reports can Canon is looking into a high MP camera meaning it will not be the next EOS body launch.  This might also suggest that if they release a high MP camera it might be more pro level (between the 5D and 1D or even a new verison of the 1D) and I recall many poeple on this forum asking for such pro level high MP camera, so this might be a good news, just with a prooduct lauch a little later then some would prefer.

Now for the 5DIII, I would buy one even if the sensor is 18MP because I would assume that the new sensor is several generation more advance than the current 21MP of the 5DII so in effect in image quality we might all be winners here.  As long as we have real life resolution, ability to crop and still get amazing picture because you have enought resolution, then we should not be worried no! 

Now for pricing, a lot of folks seem to have strong opinion about the new camera pricing for the 5DIII.  For me at least for the "upgrade" market, I think pricing is less important.  What I mean by that is weither the price is $2200 or $2800 for example, if the 5DIII is better than the 5DII, I will by it anyway.  We all have so much invested in lenses, that I dont think our price elasticity is very high!

My two cents anyway...The wait is killing me!  I just want more new gadgets!
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Wahoowa

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2011, 08:17:39 PM »
My ambition is really low. :)

My wish list for 5D3:

- Improved & cleaner sensor at high ISO (1+ stop improvement over 5D2)
- 19 cross-type AF points,
- weather seal,
- LP-E6 battery pack (If they update it, just make it compatible with 7D/60D and vice versa.), and
- SD/CF slots,
- f-stop adjustable in Av mode for video (just like 5D2, whereas 7D/60D just have either full auto or full manual mode).

If 5D3 comes out with that for $2,600-$2,700, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. :)

Minnesota Nice

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2011, 08:24:31 PM »
My ambition is really low. :)

My wish list for 5D3:

- Improved & cleaner sensor at high ISO (1+ stop improvement over 5D2)
- 19 cross-type AF points,
- weather seal,
- LP-E6 battery pack (If they update it, just make it compatible with 7D/60D and vice versa.), and
- SD/CF slots,
- f-stop adjustable in Av mode for video (just like 5D2, whereas 7D/60D just have either full auto or full manual mode).

If 5D3 comes out with that for $2,600-$2,700, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. :)

I'm sure it will be using that XQD card by the time it's released.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2011, 08:24:31 PM »

michael6liu

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2011, 09:14:44 PM »
My ambition is really low. :)

My wish list for 5D3:

- Improved & cleaner sensor at high ISO (1+ stop improvement over 5D2)
- 19 cross-type AF points,
- weather seal,
- LP-E6 battery pack (If they update it, just make it compatible with 7D/60D and vice versa.), and
- SD/CF slots,
- f-stop adjustable in Av mode for video (just like 5D2, whereas 7D/60D just have either full auto or full manual mode).

If 5D3 comes out with that for $2,600-$2,700, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. :)

I like the first 4 points but I'm a bit greedy on ISO! 2 stops would be nice! After all these years and only a mere 1 stop increase will sure let down a lot of people.
Throw in a wireless flash control and I don't care about SD slot or video function.

skitron

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2011, 09:50:32 PM »
Good news everyone waiting for the 5D3, it's announcement should happen within the next week since I finally gave up waiting on it and bit on a 5D2. Such is my luck.

Adorama has body + Canon USA warranty for $2K bundled with a Slinger bag and Red Giant Magic Bullet PhotoLooks, Text Anarchy and Knoll Light Factory for Photoshop.

I need to do some advertising shots for my business websites as well as a series of videos and the bundled software definitely made me bite on this deal. I'm a huge Red Giant fan for their video plugins. And best of all it will get written off this tax year, despite the high likelyhood the 5D3 will appear very soon now that I bit on the old one...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 10:03:32 PM by skitron »
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dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2011, 10:45:53 PM »
I would not hold my breath for 5dIII to be $2000. It will be around $2500-3000 when released. The recent price drop on 5dII has more to do with retailers during holiday season than anything. It might even go up slightly early next year until 5dIII announcement. Hopefully around CES, but more likely to be Photokina.

Sony is showing some promising results from the NEX7 but that is just one mirroless camera with a crop sensor. There are a couple of hurdles Sony needs to pass first before they can challenge Canon & Nikon:
1. Fix A77. If anything, the A77 (APS-C sensor) proves Sony is lacking in one area or the other when it comes to producing a conventional DSLR. That translates into a big unknown for their full-frame DSLR.

Why does the A77 sensor need improving? It is better than any Canon APS-C sensor.

Quote
2. Get the lenses on par with Canon & Nikon. What's a camera system without proper lenses to max out its potential? At this moment, NEX7 is heavily relying on lenses manufactured by others, like Leica. It is accetable for now with an adapter but what does that tell you about Sony as a brand? Is that the kind of company people wanna invest money into? There's no easy way to do this and it will take a long time.

The important point here is that Sony is bringing new lenses to market - they're not just sitting around doing nothing.

Quote
Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side.

Right, so Canon already owns you and has nothing to fear from you deciding to spend money on photographic equipment from Nikon/Sony.

But there are many millions more people out there that have not yet bought into a lens system from either Canon, Nikon or Sony....

AG

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2011, 10:53:39 PM »
My ambition is really low. :)

My wish list for 5D3:

- Improved & cleaner sensor at high ISO (1+ stop improvement over 5D2)
- 19 cross-type AF points,
- weather seal,
- LP-E6 battery pack (If they update it, just make it compatible with 7D/60D and vice versa.), and
- SD/CF slots,
- f-stop adjustable in Av mode for video (just like 5D2, whereas 7D/60D just have either full auto or full manual mode).

If 5D3 comes out with that for $2,600-$2,700, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. :)

- Would like to see ISO raised by 2+
- AF agreed
- Sealing agreed
- Battery AND Body the same/similar so we can still use the BG-E6 also would be nice. Otherwise I'm just moving all my LP-E6 batteries over to my old 60D.
- Would like to keep the CF card format, One of the cut downs from the 1DX could be single not Dual CF, so that could work.
- Disagree, Learn to use manual mode  :P
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

michael6liu

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2011, 11:00:47 PM »
I would not hold my breath for 5dIII to be $2000. It will be around $2500-3000 when released. The recent price drop on 5dII has more to do with retailers during holiday season than anything. It might even go up slightly early next year until 5dIII announcement. Hopefully around CES, but more likely to be Photokina.

Sony is showing some promising results from the NEX7 but that is just one mirroless camera with a crop sensor. There are a couple of hurdles Sony needs to pass first before they can challenge Canon & Nikon:
1. Fix A77. If anything, the A77 (APS-C sensor) proves Sony is lacking in one area or the other when it comes to producing a conventional DSLR. That translates into a big unknown for their full-frame DSLR.

Why does the A77 sensor need improving? It is better than any Canon APS-C sensor.

Quote
2. Get the lenses on par with Canon & Nikon. What's a camera system without proper lenses to max out its potential? At this moment, NEX7 is heavily relying on lenses manufactured by others, like Leica. It is accetable for now with an adapter but what does that tell you about Sony as a brand? Is that the kind of company people wanna invest money into? There's no easy way to do this and it will take a long time.

The important point here is that Sony is bringing new lenses to market - they're not just sitting around doing nothing.

Quote
Personally, I would not bother with a Sony full-frame even if it's priced at $2000. I have invested in Canon's gears and I have no intention of switching unless my disposable income just shoots off the roof so that I can buy Sony stuff on the side.

Right, so Canon already owns you and has nothing to fear from you deciding to spend money on photographic equipment from Nikon/Sony.

But there are many millions more people out there that have not yet bought into a lens system from either Canon, Nikon or Sony....

OK. I get it you're a BIG fan of Sony. So what exactly are you doing here on a Canon Rumor forum? Trying to persuade people to join your cause?

LimeTapse

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2011, 11:05:37 PM »
I still think Canon has to respond with a sub $2K FF with cutting edge low light capabilities when I see stuff like DP's just-today released review of $1300 Sony NEX7 that now "in terms of out-and-out image quality probably the best APS-C camera yet, regardless of size" and "offering excellent high ISO performance for low light work, with quite usable results up to ISO 6400".

How will this compare with the 5MDII?    Could a similar challenge of improved low light performance come from a $1800 Sony FF if they bring one out soon?  Or a $2000 Pentax FF (isn't the APS-C K5's low light performance 'close' to the 5DMII)?  How will a $900 Rebel T4i with Digic 5 hold up - might it be within a half stop (the 7D sensor is only a stop worse)?

That's why Canon can't price their least expensive NEW bottom-of-the-line FF at $2700, or $3500 for that matter (it almost seems that some on here don't want to see a <2K Canon FF... is that a case of 'keep the FFs out of the hands of the masses' attitude, or a case of 'I had to pay $3200 for my first FF, you should too').

Competition drives prices down, economies of scale drive prices down, a maturing market segment drives prices down.  IIRC, the 5d came to market around $3299, and the 5DMII at $600 less, I am convinced they can do a 'lighter build' FF with cutting-edge low light capabilities  for $1899.

And now they might just have to!

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2011, 11:05:37 PM »

wickidwombat

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2011, 12:53:16 AM »
i just really really want a pro build FF with no integrated grip battery life now in modern LI batteries is fine the grip is just un-necessary bulk. We need something more like nikons D700 and upcoming D800. I'm not interested in a FF rebel no feature plastic fantastic but i dont begrudge anyone for wanting such a camera, I guess there would be some concern from a business standpoint that a cheap FF might canibalise sale on the higher end ones, maybe they are still smarting from the 5D2 cutting the legs out from under the 1Ds3
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dilbert

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2011, 02:18:16 AM »
OK. I get it you're a BIG fan of Sony. So what exactly are you doing here on a Canon Rumor forum? Trying to persuade people to join your cause?

Yup!

I'd never really thought about having a cause until now...

My cause is to get people to stop buying Canon S___ until Canon pulls its collective fingers out of its a***s and delivers us new cameras that are actually interesting and have good IQ.

And if Canon wants to keep selling us the same warmed up s**t that they have for the last 5 years then it better be cheap s**t.

The evolution of the xxxD/xxD/xD line (prior to the 1DX) has been so boring that it borders on insulting.

If Sony can deliver what they're delivering then why should we accept lesser quality goods for similar or higher prices from Canon?

Or are we all stupid enough to buy anything that Canon trots out just because it has the name Canon on it?

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2011, 02:18:16 AM »