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Author Topic: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights  (Read 31514 times)

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7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« on: December 14, 2011, 11:17:49 AM »
Some insights [NL] mentions we’ll be seeing the 7D Mark II as well as a 5D Mark III by the time Photokina 2012 rolls around next September.

They also go on to mention that if Canon does release a higher megapixel full frame camera (30+ mp), it won’t be the 5D Mark III that gets them. The testing of higher megapixel sensors was also mentioned and it’s said all of this will depend on the “market”.

With all that being said, is it being insinuated that the 5D Mark III would get the same or similar sensor to the 18mp one in the 1D X?

The recent price drops of the 5D Mark II (down to $1999 in the US) I don’t think are a direct precursor to an imminent 5D Mark III announcement.

7D Mark II Absolutely zero information has come my way about a new 7D. What I don’t think will happen is an APS-H 7D. They won’t eliminate the use of EF-S lenses on the body.

I’ve only heard about a 24mp APS-C, and an updated 18mp APS-C sensor. Niether of which there is much information about.

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« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 11:23:02 AM by Canon Rumors »
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7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« on: December 14, 2011, 11:17:49 AM »

Wahoowa

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 11:41:20 AM »
I hope it'll be announced in Jan. But, realistically, I don't think it'll happen after 1DX has been available for a while.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 12:02:33 PM »
a 7D 2 is an unrealistic advance right now with everything surrounding the 1Dx, the cinema cameras and all the hype surrounding the 5D III

The only reason I would look to upgrade from my current 7D to a 7D2 would be if it offered considerable improvements in low-light performance or if they radically decided to make the upgraded body full frame (which will never happen) but with the 5D II becoming cheaper by the month ($1700 here in europe) the chances are I'm more likely to buy myself a 5D II body while the price is down and while production still continues

I'm personally not hyped on the 5D III as I'm pretty sure on release it'll be out of my price range

as for the high MP sensors.... they're not really of that much interest to me. Anything around the 20mp mark on a full frame sensor is surely enough? the 1DX has proved favour of a lower MP/full frame combo.

If I were to bother with anything with a high MP count it would be one of Hasselblad's H4D systems (the 200MS is pretty incredible) but that would be if money were no object and I just wanted a new toy :P
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 12:07:00 PM »
Well, I dont think Canon will announce both of them at the same time. I bet on 5D Mk III announced around summer time and 7D Mk II announced in september (if it will be).

I think that 5D Mk III wont be announced in January - before 1D-X becomes available. Depends of course on specs but it doesnt make much sense for me. They need to roll out 1 pro camera and see the numbers and response to know when they should pop out with new "affordable" FF - even if this is case when 5D Mk III will be 30+ Mpx and worse AF from 1D-X. They need to figure out with which specs (especially sensor) to bail out into production. Also they still have good numbers on current 5D Mk II so there is no rush for them. Maybe Nikon will change the game a bit with D700 successor but there is no info on that body.
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 12:25:06 PM »
NL mentions we’ll be seeing the 7D Mark II as well as a 5D Mark III by the time Photokina 2012 rolls around next September.

That's not surprising as we should expect Nikon to have a D300s successor in the market and between that and the Sony SLT-A77, I expect that the 7D will either not be selling very well or Canon will need deeper price cuts to keep it moving. It goes without saying that if you are thinking about a 7D and can wait a while longer, some good bargains should appear in 2012 for a camera that will be replaced inside 12 months.

Quote
They also go on to mention that if Canon does release a higher megapixel full frame camera (30+ mp), it won’t be the 5D Mark III that gets them. The testing of higher megapixel sensors was also mentioned and it’s said all of this will depend on the “market”.

With all that being said, is it being insinuated that the 5D Mark III would get the same or similar sensor to the 18mp one in the 1D X?

Translation: Canon are waiting to see what Nikon/Sony do in that space (FF DSLR) and how good those sensors are. If both of them introduce a 30+MP DSLR that has IQ close to or better than the 1DX then an 18MP 5D3 will not attract a whole lot of new Canon customers and the 5D3 will be dead in the water - except for upgraders from 5D/xxD/xxxD and those looking to replace a broken camera.

Quote
The recent price drops of the 5D Mark II (down to $1999 in the US) I don’t think are a direct precursor to an imminent 5D Mark III announcement.

Agreed. I think they're either reflective of the various retailers having a harder time moving stock or Canon trying to get more people that have been thinking about full-frame to buy Canon before the new Nikon is announced in detail.

RayS2121

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 12:35:26 PM »
As 2011 winds down, I wiped the profuse drooling I have become prone to since 1D-X was announced, and reassessed when “realistically” a 5D3 could be in my hands...not an announcement...an actual body I can unbox. ;)

Central to the timeline is what sensor Canon would use on the 5D3; would they do what they did before with 1Ds3 and 5D2 and use a similar sensor as the 1 series, though not many expected them to, not the least of which the 1Ds3 owners who doled out premium $$$? Or will they put resources into generating a redundant sensor just making minor MP tweaks and fixing a bit of ISO?

I think history will repeat itself. I would expect a similar sensor to 1Dx, but as noted by some earlier, heavily crippled goodies including AF, fps, Digic versions, build and weather sealing, etc... This will annoy the 1Dx owners, as it did the IDs3 earlier…but canon will wait a descent enough time in between the two releases to buffer the blow. If they use a similar sensor, in order for them not to be beat to a pulp by the enraged 1D-x owners who spent $6000+, they have to wait a decent period of time, even if announced earlier, to actually ship... oh lets say...a year  ;)

So here’s the likely time line: till about April 2012, the 1D-x eats up all the oxygen in the room. The 5D3 crowd is antsy, becoming rabid by summer (just what Canon wants, desperation, Cha-ching!). They throw a few teasers of coming attractions throughout the rest of the year but without actually delivering any concrete details or making any real announcements. Breaking point in December 2012. The "I-want-my-5D3-now" crowd is having kittens and SPCA is overflowing. Having sold 1000’s more units of 5D2’s interim, and having eked out maximum anticipation, they finally announce 5D3 around December 2012,  but here’s the kicker….you have to wait oh just a few months for it to ship and you to have fun…that will put it off till March 2013 (not coincidentally exactly 1 year from 1D-x landing in people's hands). Oh fine! Possibly, Feb 2013? A month can save thousands jumping off the cliff…;)

Bottom line, lots of drool, but no 5D3 in hand till early Feb/March 2013. Sounds about right?


Now based on CR's last post on 5D3 MP levels, there is more reason to believe what I suggested above earlier is possible with the 1DX like sensor being featured in the 5D3 replacement.  In speaking about 5D3 replacement, I mean a product that will target an "average" 5D2 customor who had bought 5d2 at about ~$3000 pricepoint give or take a few.

We are not talking about  the highly vocal fans who say they don't mind paying $4500 or more for more features and MP. Such a body is not a "direct" replacement to 5D2 price point.

It may well be that Canon can easily make a 36+ MP sensor, upgrade electronics to increase data flow, engineer moderately higher ISO performace in a body. Perhaps we can wish in our wet dreams that it will shoot at blistering 12fps, upgraded AF,  in a weather sealed body, that dances a jig when we whistle...such a body is likely to target a higher price point as previously noted by some good heads here.

Using 1DX -like sensor will save Canon R&D dollars. By using 1DX like sensor, Canon can quickly deliver a new FF body with lower features than 1DX for about~ $3000 or so. They have used similar sensors in higher/lower end bodies before ....no reason to believe they won't do it again.

But keep your chin up MP folks! Based on what Nikon does, a higher MP version may well follow, but at a higher price point or with limited features to maximize profits.  Best! :)



« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:44:44 PM by RayS2121 »

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 12:40:59 PM »
I am eagerly awaiting 7D mk II, but I won't likely be pre-ordering... Not unless it has something extra good going for it... Prolly, given my current finances, I'll need to wait until 2013 to get it anyway...

My guess is that the 7D mk II will be announced in September... when it will actually be available is anyone's guess...
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 12:40:59 PM »

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »
Thats exactly close to what I think. New 5D MK III with less MPx and less noise - same sensor as 1D-X is most likely to come true. Well, I was at one Canon event last week and one guy asked Canon rep about 5D Mk III and he mentioned that there is possibility that a completly new line will be announced with different AF from current 5D Mk II and higher MPx sensor. I dont know the reliabilty of that info but it makes sense to me - especially when D800 with 36 MPx will be announced.

Quote
Now based on CR's last post on 5D3 MP levels, there is more reason to believe what I suggested is possible with the 1DX like sensor being featured in the 5D3 replacement.  In speaking about 5D3 replacement, I mean a product that will target an "average" 5D2 customor who had bought 5d2 at about ~$3000 pricepoint give or take a few.

We are not talking about  the highly vocal fans who say they don't mind paying $4500 or more for more features and MP. Such a body is not a "direct" replacement to 5D2 price point.

It may well be that Canon can easily make a 36+ MP sensor, upgrade electronics to increase data flow, engineer moderately higher ISO performace in a body. Perhaps we can wish in our wet dreams that it will shoot at blistering 12fps, upgraded AF,  in a weather sealed body, that dances a jig when we whistle...such a body is likely to target a higher price point as previously noted by some good heads here.

Using 1DX -like sensor will save Canon R&D dollars. By using 1DX like sensor, Canon can quickly deliver a new FF body with lower features than 1DX for about~ $3000 or so. They have used similar sensors in higher/lower end bodies before ....no reason to believe they won't do it again.

But keep your chin up MP folks! Based on what Nikon does, a higher MP version may well follow, but at a higher price point or with limited features to maximize profits.  Best! :)

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 12:45:56 PM »
I think it's really hard to try to improve on the 7d & 5d mkii (will include the 60d) really great camera's for what they are :) think everyone would love a 5d mkIII with at least one XLR input a mode that switches the sensor to an 8mp for low light :P then flips back to a 30MP camera lol :D

but none the less even though I love the DOF that i'm seeing; that I would love an xf100 for video and the  dslr as a camera :)

so... i'm happy with my 7d / 5d mkii for a couple more years :)

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 01:51:23 PM »
Ahh the rollercoaster ride continues... now credible sources again say that the 5D Mk III have an 18 MP sensor, likes its' 1Dx bretheren.

An official announcement would logically take place during CES... in January 2012. It does make some sense that canon would wait until after the 1Dx is on store shelves to release news of the 5D Mk III. For a CES 12' announcement I would think its safe to assume that those who plan on purchasing the 1Dx will not be swayed by the 5D3 features, meaning the 5D3 will not exceed the 1Dx in features, so that gives us a logical place to begin guessing:

18mp
4 FPS
25600 ISO
similar UI to 1Dx
19 pt AF

all for around $2599

I would suspect a pethora of Lens announcements to accompany the 5D3 announcement as well:
24mm-70mm L II, etc...

5D3 will change the FF game... it canon bread and butter!

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 02:22:55 PM »

so that gives us a logical place to begin guessing:

18mp
4 FPS
25600 ISO
similar UI to 1Dx
19 pt AF


I tend to agree, but maybe a slightly higher FPS, say 6.

Feels like a "7D" features upgrade on a higher ISO/lower noise FF body.

And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe.  I have to speculate that recent price downgrades are because of "a stall" in the 5DII market - I dont have any numbers/evidence to back that up - but it stands to reason that serious buyers may be going into a wait-and-see mode until they know specs and timing of the Mark III 

I dont think retailers are trying to dump inventory because of any known information - as I am sure the 21 MP Mark II should continue to see good sales for a good while, no matter how it is positioned.  Canon may already be positioning the 5DMII at a lower price point between the 7D and 5DMIII ($1499, 1999, 2499+?)

And I dont think the Mark III will canabolize the 1DX.  If you have $6800 to spend on a camera, you are way beyond the Mark III announcement; unless you are in the High MP camp and then maybe you are shopping MF's.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 02:29:00 PM »
An 18 MP 1Dxish sensor at a moderate price point ~3k would be THE dream cam for me as an amateur. L1 50, H1 51k ISO.
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 02:52:55 PM »
Quote
And I dont think the Mark III will canabolize the 1DX.  If you have $6800 to spend on a camera, you are way beyond the Mark III announcement; unless you are in the High MP camp and then maybe you are shopping MF's.

I disagree and that's why I have a problem with the supposed specs. The vast majority of 1DX buyers are business buyers. In these times, every business has to keep a close watch on the bottom line. Most major newspapers today are either already in bankruptcy or heading that way. Most magazines job out their work to freelancers who have to compete with one another. Given the downward price pressure on photographers in all areas, there are very few who can afford to opt for the 1DX unless they have no choice.

So, one has to look at the features of the 1DX and figure out which features Canon has to protect. I don't have access to their market research so I won't predict what they will reserve for the 1DX and what they will allow to filter down. The remarkable similarities between the 1DX and the Nikon D4 provides a little insight into what both companies' research shows their top tier buyers want.

I thought a clear differentiation between the 1DX and the 5D MKIII made sense. If we are to believe these latest rumors, that could be wrong. I'm skeptical, but then, I have been surprised by Canon a lot lately.
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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 02:52:55 PM »

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 02:57:19 PM »
If Canon announces the 5DmIII in the first quarter of 2012, it might as well launch along with the 1DX.
I agree, if they share the same sensor, it might be difficult to position them for special purposes. But as far as I understand, the the most marings come from the consumer cameras. It might well be interesting for canon to launch the 5DMIII at the same time. And the 1DX just to show what's possible for top class sports and action photographers.

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 03:01:13 PM »
And yes, I do expect the CES timeframe.... 


I disagree. CES January 2012 announcements are very unrealistic... read my reasons above and at an earlier thread here:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2399.msg51182.html#msg51182

Canon can easily ride out the first half of the year on 1DX news as Nikon is playing catch up with 16mp D4 just to answer 1DX. Even if they come in quickly with D800, canon has time till Summer or Fall 2012 before the pressure mounts.

It is naive to expect 5D3 sooner, especially if Canon is planning on recycling 1DX like sensor in 5D3. Even with lower stats, 1DX buyers spending a whopping ~$7000 will be pissed off if the sensor, the central feature, the brain is the same with a cheaper cousin that is already announced. From a marketing point of view, this is no way for them to sell enough 1DX and they won't do it! They will wait a respectable time after 1DX is in the market before announcing another body using 1DX like sensor. Just refer to history of 5D2 and 1D series using similar sensors before...

So if there is an announcement of 5D3 in Sept-December 2012 range, I don’t expect actual shipping of 5D3 or people laying hands on it till Christmas 2012 or more realistically early 2013. We may get a lot of teasers to keep us on the hook, but I am talking about the real thing in your hand.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 03:06:07 PM by RayS2121 »

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Re: 7D2, 5D3 and Megapixel Insights
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 03:01:13 PM »