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Author Topic: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?  (Read 21305 times)

briansquibb

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2011, 06:40:22 PM »

Brian... the outter points are not cross type, so they can focus, but are typically not as critically focused... like focusing on the cheek and not the eye and such... It'll get you in the ballpark but with shallow dof, it could be enough to royally screw you up...

I dont use the 5DII for shallow DOF - typically nowadays for weddings and landscapes for anything much less than f/8 is rare.

I find it irritating to have something totally dismissed as rubbish when in fact they are just limited. There is a very big difference because when one is aware of the limitations they can be worked around. So to say that there is effectively only 1, central, AF point is clearly nonsense.

That central point by the way is the most effective on the market for AF in low light - another forgotten fact.

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2011, 06:40:22 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2011, 06:48:47 PM »

Brian... the outter points are not cross type, so they can focus, but are typically not as critically focused... like focusing on the cheek and not the eye and such... It'll get you in the ballpark but with shallow dof, it could be enough to royally screw you up...

I dont use the 5DII for shallow DOF - typically nowadays for weddings and landscapes for anything much less than f/8 is rare.

I find it irritating to have something totally dismissed as rubbish when in fact they are just limited. There is a very big difference because when one is aware of the limitations they can be worked around. So to say that there is effectively only 1, central, AF point is clearly nonsense.

That central point by the way is the most effective on the market for AF in low light - another forgotten fact.

Just to clarify, you are calling me limited an not the camera?  I understand the limitations of the 5d2... I know now not to use it in situations it can royally screw with the focus system... As neuro mentioned many of times, you can always fix noise, you cannot fix missed shots due to the AF... Also the central point, from my understanding, is best used on lenses 2.8 and faster... that does not mean you have to be in low light for it to be at it's best... I have been shooting professionally now for many years and have worked at my craft for many years so i would think twice about calling me limited...
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2011, 06:49:21 PM »
Try focusing at f/8 or more which is what I do for weddings ....

Which certainly is one viable solution workaround for the weak performance of the 5DII's AF system in certain shooting situations. 

I dont use the 5DII for shallow DOF - typically nowadays for weddings and landscapes for anything much less than f/8 is rare.

Thanks for the explanation - I now completely understand your 'defense' of the 5DII's AF system.  As has been stated frequently, know the limitations of your equipment.  At f/8, any errors in focusing are quite effectively masked by the deep DoF.

The problem is that most people expect a $2K+ camera to focus accurately even with a shallow DoF.  Speaking for myself, I certainly didn't buy a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, 135mm f/2L, or 85mm f/1.2L II to 'f/8 and be there.'
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handsomerob

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2011, 06:53:14 PM »
The problem is that most people expect a $2K+ camera to focus accurately even with a shallow DoF.  Speaking for myself, I certainly didn't buy a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, 135mm f/2L, or 85mm f/1.2L II to 'f/8 and be there.'

Copy that!

awinphoto

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2011, 06:59:19 PM »
The problem is that most people expect a $2K+ camera to focus accurately even with a shallow DoF.  Speaking for myself, I certainly didn't buy a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, 135mm f/2L, or 85mm f/1.2L II to 'f/8 and be there.'

yep....
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wickidwombat

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2011, 07:15:43 PM »
The center point is pretty good as far as accuracy goes. On the weekend, the new 85mm f1.4 sigma spent 90% of the time on my 5DII and using the focus recompose method i would say i nailed probably 85% of shots at f1.4 to f2.8 most of the utter failures were when they moved, walking etc. So I just used the 1D3 with 70-200 on for those shots.

I really hope the 5D3 gets an older 1D 45Point AF such as that of the fixed system from the 1D3 where you can choose to have 19 or even only 9 selectable, I actually prefer having less selectable points as its quicker to change points on the fly rather than cycling through millions, a 5 selectable option would be nice too ie 1 center and 4 at each intersection of the golden lines. In fact give me an AF that just has 5 2.8 cross type selectable points at those locations and it will be the perfect camera for shooting portraits.
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briansquibb

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2011, 08:22:50 PM »
Try focusing at f/8 or more which is what I do for weddings ....

Which certainly is one viable solution workaround for the weak performance of the 5DII's AF system in certain shooting situations. 

I dont use the 5DII for shallow DOF - typically nowadays for weddings and landscapes for anything much less than f/8 is rare.

Thanks for the explanation - I now completely understand your 'defense' of the 5DII's AF system.  As has been stated frequently, know the limitations of your equipment.  At f/8, any errors in focusing are quite effectively masked by the deep DoF.

The problem is that most people expect a $2K+ camera to focus accurately even with a shallow DoF.  Speaking for myself, I certainly didn't buy a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II, 135mm f/2L, or 85mm f/1.2L II to 'f/8 and be there.'

If you read this correctly I say that nowadays for weddings and landscapes I use f/8. The karting examples were all at f/2.8 which I dont consider paricularly shallow. I certainly did not suggest all pictures should be taken at f/8 or more - you have misread my comment

The people that shoot with shallow DOF are the portrait shooters. Portrait shooters are a significant population of 5DII owners - so I make a reasonable a guess the 5DII manages the AF for that OK else it wouldn't sell.

It is clear that you are biased against the 5DII as you have continued to take comments out of context to try and prove that the AF of the 5DII is very poor . You have been shown sufficient photos by me to prove that the 5DII can take good pictures.

Let me say for one last time:

The AF on the 5DII is adequate, when locked on it is accurate. The centre AF point is very good, especially in low light (locking on when even the 1D4 fails)

I am not defending the 5DII AF - I am merely spelling out the truth and dispelling some of the untruths that are circulating - and backing it up with real life images to show what it can do.

You seem to be continually trying to find fault in an extreme situation - and presenting it as a weakness. This attack could be made on any camera out there - they all have weaknesses. It would be far more constructive to give a balanced view of the equipment, based on real, hands on experience with samples that would show the less experienced what they can achieve.

You are attacking one of the most sucesful cameras of our time - had it not occured to you that it is very good to get this reputation over the last 3 years - and part of the camera is the AF system which must be OK else it wouldn't continue to be in demand.

Why do people think the difference between this and the 7D is that the 7D has a wonderfull AF system and that a quick run of denoise makes the 7D a better camera? The big difference is that the 5DII is full frame and the 7D is crop and all the disadvantages that the crop brings to the IQ.

@awinphoto - no I wasn't calling you limited that was the camera I was refering to with the outside AF points. Not nice to start threatening when you have misread a comment

Seems everyone is misreading my comments tonight.

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2011, 08:22:50 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2011, 09:22:34 PM »
Brians, sorry if I misread your comments however that's what it came across as. We aren't saying with denoise the 7d is better perse, but can be as useful in some situations as a tool compared to the 5d2  with a better feature set. To me as a camera tool goes, I appreciate what the 7d offers.  Brilliant af, programmable buttons and multifunction button, electronic level, speed light control, 3 stop light meter +&- , Weathersealing, feel...  Those alone makes the 7d a notch above. To me, as a tool, the 5d is a 50d with a full frame sensor and movie mode. Oh yeah, the 50d has all cross type sensors. The 5d2 sensor is quite nice, but that's the only real benefit over the 7d and that's not worth the extra premium in price for a lower feature set. You say you are defending the 5d2 where you think it needs defended and we  are doing the same with the 7d you are dismissing.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2011, 09:25:53 PM »
I am merely spelling out the truth...

"Truth" is a relative term.  I prefer fact.  The 5DII uses the AF sensor designed for the original 5D, which is similar in many respects to the system in the 20D that is still in use in the current incarnation of the xxxD line.  Most of the AF systems to which it is being compared are newer, despite being used in cameras which cost much less.  That's the progresion of technology, and while it would have been nice if Canon had redisgned the AF system for the 5DII instead of recycling old technology, they did not choose to do that, and despite that, the camera sell quite well.  It's no accident that the majority of complaints about very popular camera are about the AF system, but now I'm straying into the realm of truth rather than fact.

Whichever.  I'm going to agree to disagree with you, whether you agree to disagree or disagree to disagree with me.  I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.  The 5DII's AF system is not as bad as I make it out to be, nor as good as you make it out to be, but somethere in the middle. 
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2011, 09:32:46 PM »
We aren't saying with denoise the 7d is better perse, but can be as useful in some situations as a tool compared to the 5d2  with a better feature set. To me as a camera tool goes, I appreciate what the 7d offers.  Brilliant af, programmable buttons and multifunction button, electronic level, speed light control, 3 stop light meter +&- , Weathersealing, feel...  Those alone makes the 7d a notch above. To me, as a tool, the 5d is a 50d with a full frame sensor and movie mode. Oh yeah, the 50d has all cross type sensors. The 5d2 sensor is quite nice, but that's the only real benefit over the 7d and that's not worth the extra premium in price for a lower feature set. You say you are defending the 5d2 where you think it needs defended and we  are doing the same with the 7d you are dismissing.

+1.  The 5DII delivers wonderful images, thanks to the excellent and FF sensor.  The AF is it's weakest link, but where that can be successfully managed or worked around, it's a great camera.

Still...I'm definitely looking forward to the 1D X as better than the combination of 7D + 5DII.
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briansquibb

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2011, 09:37:47 PM »
You say you are defending the 5d2 where you think it needs defended and we  are doing the same with the 7d you are dismissing.

I am not dismissing the 7D, just saying that the IQ is not up to that of the 5DII - and posted a 7D photo to show the point about the terrible (to my eyes) bokeh

Somewhere down the line here it has been lost that I have moved to a 1D4 so that I could get a better than 7D AF and fps at the same time as getting a similar IQ of the 5DII (better a low light in IMO). I have no vested personal interest in promoting the 7D (now both redundant) or the 5DII which is retired to essentially only landscapes and as a backup.

If anything I should be banging the drum about the 1D4 which is, to me, far better than the 5DII and the 7D.

awinphoto

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2011, 10:07:06 PM »
You say you are defending the 5d2 where you think it needs defended and we  are doing the same with the 7d you are dismissing.

I am not dismissing the 7D, just saying that the IQ is not up to that of the 5DII - and posted a 7D photo to show the point about the terrible (to my eyes) bokeh

Somewhere down the line here it has been lost that I have moved to a 1D4 so that I could get a better than 7D AF and fps at the same time as getting a similar IQ of the 5DII (better a low light in IMO). I have no vested personal interest in promoting the 7D (now both redundant) or the 5DII which is retired to essentially only landscapes and as a backup.

If anything I should be banging the drum about the 1D4 which is, to me, far better than the 5DII and the 7D.

The 1d4 is a great camera and we wish you well with your ventures. We are a forum to help each other become better photographers and use our tools better. The 1d series is the natural destination canon would like people to evolve to hence they make it really nice. I for one would rather discuss new techniques and tips to become better photographers rather than arguing and dissing cameras.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2011, 10:21:38 PM »
I for one would rather discuss new techniques and tips to become better photographers rather than arguing and dissing cameras.

+1.  And congrats on 500 helpful posts!
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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2011, 10:21:38 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2011, 10:29:44 PM »
I for one would rather discuss new techniques and tips to become better photographers rather than arguing and dissing cameras.

+1.  And congrats on 500 helpful posts!

Why thank you. Just thinking its like 3 in the morning for Brian in the uk. Hope he has the day off tomorrow. :)
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

briansquibb

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2011, 10:33:56 PM »


Why thank you. Just thinking its like 3 in the morning for Brian in the uk. Hope he has the day off tomorrow. :)

The good weather is not expected until mid morning when I am going on the hunt for the winter migrant birds

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Re: Whortwhile to go for 5D Mark II?
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2011, 10:33:56 PM »