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Author Topic: What if - interchengeable sensors  (Read 8033 times)

archangelrichard

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2011, 05:36:59 PM »
OK; each motherboard has a BIOS chipset (firmware - software on hardware with some part upgradable via flashing the bios) but, NO you can not put just any processor on any motherboard (think speed - if the motherboard is designed for certain speeds it won't go faster, nor a wider / 64 bit processor in a 32 bit bios / chipset; etc.) Memory has different types and different speeds, etc.

NO, this is not anywhere near as easy as you might think (30+ years of tech support, upgrading, etc.

Which is one reason the manufacturers love Microsoft, every new iteration of windows requires a new computer to run it well

So, 1) if there were such a market, this would already be built; 2) NO you can not just replace the sensor, it would be very hard to design something that small and sensitive to position to be user-changeable (and if you actually understood how sensitive position is here you would already know this won't work which is why the Ricoh takes the whole lens / camera sensor part of the body) - medium format has it's own issues and costs tens of thousands of dollars

interchangeable sensors would have to include 90% of the electronics with it (NO, the digic / digic+ / dual digic; etc. layout have firmware built in so they are camera specific to that sensor)

fully customizable cameras would just not work; there is too much interdependence on the components and the ones you want most to change are the least able to change with interdependence

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2011, 05:36:59 PM »

marekjoz

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2011, 07:18:01 PM »
OK; each motherboard has a BIOS chipset (firmware - software on hardware with some part upgradable via flashing the bios) but, NO you can not put just any processor on any motherboard (think speed - if the motherboard is designed for certain speeds it won't go faster, nor a wider / 64 bit processor in a 32 bit bios / chipset; etc.) Memory has different types and different speeds, etc.

I respectfully disagree...
We're not talking about ANY processors. We're talking about digics - specialized mainly signal (image handling) processors of one manufacturer, based on special purposes design. They Know their design. If "30 years" you Know that chipset has nothing to do with it. You can have chipset with bios working with any processor, as far as io, memory and bus are properly operated and based on same microinstructions (yes, I programmed in assembler, also embedded devices). This is not about putting any processor. This is about design allowing inserting a next generation processor operating in the same environment. It's not about design allowing put 128 bit processor :) in 64 bit address space (let's look forward) without compability handling.
It's all about making everyone happy. Please archangerichard don't try to say it is not possible to design an architecture where just one or just two digics must operate at a time. Is it really not possible to give people a choice - you have one processor in standard, you want two (to have 10 instead 6 fps) - pay 200$ (300, 400...) more?

Is it really not possible to design microadjustment allowing to position a sensor properly? Is it not possible to design some simple lens-like ef mounted cap with some holes or led/laser assisted sensor positioning?
What differs digic2, 3, 4 and 5 in terms of board circuit design?
Can digic 4 or 5 (ie) work in different camera łines like powershot and eos with no respect to the sensor they operate on?
 I think techs are not really so important - a Man was sent to the Moon, a Man could design cheap interchengeable sensors in a camera.
 Maybe time didn't come yet? Maybe in 3 years? But why not now? Look how very different expectations from 5d3 there are. Some want high iso, some MPs, some don't bother about lazy AF.
The question is: how you maintain all these (sometimes) opposite requirements without forcing people to buy 2, 3 or 4 different cameras for their purposes and without canibalizing the flagship model? Could the winner in this slr battle be the player who offers this as the first one?
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briansquibb

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2011, 07:35:10 PM »

Which is one reason the manufacturers love Microsoft, every new iteration of windows requires a new computer to run it well


That may have been the case in the early days, but patently not true in the last 5 years

Axilrod

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 04:35:41 PM »
What if next 5d would have interchangeable sensors?
I don't think it's not possible from technical point of view. You can change a processor in a computer or put more memory. Some kind of transport and microadjustment would allow to avoid not proper embedding.
From marketing point of view - wouldn't you like to have a body with a choice of having ie 18MP 51200 ISO or 36MP 12800ISO?
What if they would also allow change (or add another) signal processor? 3 types of AF board?
Let's say 800$ sensor, 500$ - digic.

With some restrictions this idea wouldn't canibalize 1dx. You could for instance build a body of same capabilities but higher price summing all parts' prices than 1dx itself.

Red is going some simpler way with it's skeleton (they don't allow to change sensors but why not?)
What do you think?

I'm almost certain I read that one of the advantages of the RED Scarlet was the fact that it was "future proof" since you could upgrade the sensor later on....
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AJ

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 06:48:44 PM »
I want to be able to tilt my camera's sensor

marekjoz

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 07:52:17 PM »
I want to be able to tilt my camera's sensor

... and shift? :)
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Richard8971

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 10:45:53 PM »
I would have to say that instead of "interchangable sensors", the best choice would be, a sensor that could be tailored to each shooting need.

I know it has already been rumored with a couple of camera bodies, but IF Canon made a (for the sake of arguement) a 28mp full frame sensor that could DO several different things.

IE, be programmed to...

1. Be a 28mp full frame, high (12800, example) ISO 4-5fps sensor (silky smooth images)
2. Be a 24mp full frame, low ISO (6400, emample), 10-12fps sensor (not so silky smooth, but trade-off for super speed)
3. Be a 18mp APS-H sensor (1.3 crop) low ISO high speed sensor, 16+fps
4. Be a 16mp APS-C sensor (1.6 crop) low ISO super high speed senor, 18+fps...

Low mp (14mp? 16mp?) and extremely silky smooth images at very high ISO (12800+) ???

You get the idea. One sensor that can be programmed to do whatever you wanted. There are times you want a full frame, "silky smooth" image (with low fps) and there are times you want the reach of a APS-C senor with super frame frates (I.E. 7D) Combine this with a body that can accept EF AND EF-s lenses and you get whatever you want!

You can't have it all, but I believe the technology exists that Canon COULD produce a multipurpose camera that could do allot of this and more.

"DIGIC" could be programmed to do each of these things. Trade one quality for another kind of thing... I also believe that if Canon went back to the "still" camera (and I hope they do, just MO) and took out video shooting you could squeeze allot of different sensor resolution programs in it's place. I would BUY this camera!

Just my 2 cents.

D
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 11:07:14 PM by Richard8971 »
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 10:45:53 PM »

marekjoz

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2011, 04:33:58 AM »


IE, be programmed to...

1. Be a 28mp full frame, high (12800, example) ISO 4-5fps sensor (silky smooth images)
2. Be a 24mp full frame, low ISO (6400, emample), 10-12fps sensor (not so silky smooth, but trade-off for super speed)
3. Be a 18mp APS-H sensor (1.3 crop) low ISO high speed sensor, 16+fps
4. Be a 16mp APS-C sensor (1.6 crop) low ISO super high speed senor, 18+fps...

Low mp (14mp? 16mp?) and extremely silky smooth images at very high ISO (12800+) ???
(...)
"DIGIC" could be programmed to do each of these things. Trade one quality for another kind of thing... I also believe that if Canon went back to the "still" camera (and I hope they do, just MO) and took out video shooting you could squeeze allot of different sensor resolution programs in it's place. I would BUY this camera!

Just my 2 cents.

D

What you propose would be the best and I'd love it too. But here we'd have interpolation issues which I really don't Know how to avoid.
Does anybody know if there were any tries of designing another type of sensor with some other than linear or rectangular rgb subpixels arrangement - ie in triangular arrangement? Or maybe splitting rgb dots in one dot (ie placing r, g and b subpixels over each other - some kind of layers)?
(Edited some grammar and meaning)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 06:31:32 AM by marekjoz »
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Master_of_the_Universe

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2011, 07:45:10 AM »

What you propose would be the best and I'd love it too. But here we'd have interpolation issues which I really don't Know how to avoid.
Does anybody know if there were any tries of designing another type of sensor with some other than linear or rectangular rgb subpixels arrangement - ie in triangular arrangement? Or maybe splitting rgb dots in one dot (ie placing r, g and b subpixels over each other - some kind of layers)?
(Edited some grammar and meaning)

All this has been done and is currently done in professional video cameras.

The stills market can't really support the cost of these sort of designs though.




marekjoz

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 09:07:06 AM »

What you propose would be the best and I'd love it too. But here we'd have interpolation issues which I really don't Know how to avoid.
Does anybody know if there were any tries of designing another type of sensor with some other than linear or rectangular rgb subpixels arrangement - ie in triangular arrangement? Or maybe splitting rgb dots in one dot (ie placing r, g and b subpixels over each other - some kind of layers)?
(Edited some grammar and meaning)

All this has been done and is currently done in professional video cameras.

The stills market can't really support the cost of these sort of designs though.




Thanks - I didn't Know that.
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juwi

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2011, 11:58:38 AM »
I don't think that we'll see an interchangeable sensor system in the DSLR world. While it is quite common with medium format it just doesn't seem like a good solution for DSLRs.
Just think about the requirements for a moment.
If the sensor were interchangeable the image processor(s) would have to be interchangeable, too, since they won't scale for very long.
If we have interchangeable sensors and image processors we need to introduce lots of software onto the camera OR give this interchangeable module its own set of software that melely interfaces with the body - the latter is probably the better option since it will scale better into the future.

The resulting camera would be much more complex than anything currently on the market though and it would be rather complex to develop. The body could be rather cheap of course - say 500-700 bucks. The sensor(s) would probably come at a pretty hefty price though since it will carry all the complex electronics and it would be a very delicate part prone to damage until it is tightly assembled to the back of the camera.

What if they wanted to introduce a new feature though (as in actually new). They'd ever need to build the camera in a way that its future-proof-expandable in every direction or you'd still need a new body every now and then (with current development, we could be speaking of a new body every other sensor generation), which would kind of ridicule the whole concept unless this whole concept were to be developed for a niche market like medium format.

Richard8971

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 08:55:46 PM »
What you propose would be the best and I'd love it too. But here we'd have interpolation issues which I really don't Know how to avoid.
Does anybody know if there were any tries of designing another type of sensor with some other than linear or rectangular rgb subpixels arrangement - ie in triangular arrangement? Or maybe splitting rgb dots in one dot (ie placing r, g and b subpixels over each other - some kind of layers)?
(Edited some grammar and meaning)

Well, DSLR's do this in principal already. You can choose a 6mp, 8mp, or 10mp (as the case may be) sized image already from most digital cameras. As you cropped down the image size (by simply selecting the pixels needed) the resolution would become whatever fit inside that particular crop. You would just take a image from the inside pixels, nothing more. Also being that it would be a smaller image, the DIGIC could process it faster. You would give up image quality for speed or visa versa.

The camera would only need ONE sensor (IE full frame ??mp) and you would simply use the pixels you needed. (full frame, APS-H or APS-C) I would imagine that even if the camera cost a bit more than normal, I bet several people would buy it because they would only need ONE camera for multiple shooting needs.

Look at it this way, my 7D can take HD video right? HD video is 1280 x 720. My sensor is capable of taking a still at a resolution of 5184 x 3456. So if my 7D can take a HD video at a smaller resolution at 30fps and process it quickly enough for video needs then my camera could also be programmed to take a photo at whatever resolution I choose! This is about programming the DIGIC to process the image, nothing more. I realize that there is more to it than that, but in principle it is that simple.
Canon 6D, 5D2, 7Dv2.03, 50D, 40D, T1i, XTi...XT (& lenses, flahses), various powershots... You get the idea... I have a problem. :)

Wife shoots Nikon, D7000, D7100, (lenses and flashes)... we constantly tease each other that our cameras are better than each others!

Bengt Nyman

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2011, 03:44:08 AM »
What if next 5d would have interchangeable sensors?
Ricoh is offering that right now: The Ricoh GXR. The lens and sensor is one easily replaced module.
It allows for better optimization between lens and sensor and it should allow for economical specials like high resolution B&W without Bayer pixel color filters, color interpolation software etc.
http://www.ricoh.com/r_dc/gxr/
I would buy one right now if they had an unfiltered B&W module available.

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Re: What if - interchengeable sensors
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2011, 03:44:08 AM »