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Author Topic: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature  (Read 26633 times)

Canon Rumors

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*UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« on: October 18, 2010, 07:21:12 PM »
Update A contributor has had this to say about the AA filter rumor and that it’s unlikely Canon will remove it from the 1Ds Mark IV.

MF camera makers deleted AA filters primarily for reasons of cost, not image quality, as aliasing is very destructive. Yes, they do use software to “correct” this, but it does a terrible job. It’s an insoluble problem, because it’s a “many to one” issue for the software.

Large AA filters are very expensive to manufacture, particularly at MF quantities. A Pentax representative even stated flat out that cost was the sole reason they didn’t include one in the 645D.

Canon will delete the AA filter once resolutions get high enough that diffraction is the limiting factor.

Thanks Steve

From NL

The ‘next 1Ds’ was delayed for some bigger jumps in technology and to hold it’s ‘top camera’ spot for longer. DigicV will allow for handling of binning, better video and ‘software removal’ of the need for an AA filter at 35+MP. The camera might not ship until later next year.

I asked around to find out if software could correct what the lack of an AA filter could bring about. Most notably; moire. The general consensous was it was possible. A regular contributor pointed out medium format cameras do not have an AA filter and combat moire in software (thanks Kurtis).

For those that don’t know, the lack of an AA filter would produce sharper images right at the sensor. However, Canon has a lot of lenses that would need to be upgraded to resolve a sharper 35+ mp sensor.

cr

« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 11:11:54 AM by Canon Rumors »
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*UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« on: October 18, 2010, 07:21:12 PM »

scalesusa

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 07:38:23 PM »
A 35MP FF sensor is about the equivalent of a 13.6 MP APS C sensor.  I'm pretty sure there is no problem with almost all, if not all resolving a sensor like this.

x-vision

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 07:45:36 PM »
Aah. Somebody's been wet-dreaming again.

Pixel-binning and weak/missing AA filter are technical characteristics that have no appeal for real photographers - just for the techno geeks that came up with this lame rumor. 

FAIL.

x-vision

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 08:30:33 PM »
Also note that Canon publicly said in a 2008 interview that they have no plans to remove the AA filters from their cameras:

Quote
Would you ever consider removing the anti alias (low pass) filter - or using a lighter one - on high end, high resolution models such as the EOS 1Ds Mark III, to improve pixel level sharpness, removing any moiré in software (like medium format cameras)?

We believe the potential for false color moiré effects would be a disadvantage for the customer, so no.

Full text of the interview a here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0810/08100302_canoninterview.asp

Rocky

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 12:54:30 AM »
Aah. Somebody's been wet-dreaming again.

Pixel-binning and weak/missing AA filter are technical characteristics that have no appeal for real photographers - just for the techno geeks that came up with this lame rumor. 

FAIL.

Au contraire.

It's been noted in various photography forums that the Leica M9 with 18MP delivers a picture that exhibits finer detail than do any of 1Ds3 (21MP), 5D2 (21MP), Sony A900 (24MP) and Nikon D3x (24MP).

But maybe your "real photographer" doesn't use high end equipment like professionals do.
M9 got better picture is due to the combination of the following three factors (in order of importance): 1. Much better lens than Canon, Nikon or Sony. 2. Better DSP. 3. Removal of AA filter ( with the potential of Moir under certain condition)
As for Leica being used by professionals, this can be a very interesting situation. Leica is being used mainly by high end enthusiast with a deep pocket. A very small percentage of professional will use it. the reason is due to high price for the body and the lenses. Also even it can be used up to 135mm focal length, it is already a pain in the butt,  due to small frame in the view finder.  So the usable focal length is from 21mm to 90mm. You cannot use it for closeup, period. How many professional can live with  these limitations???

tzalmagor

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 12:57:01 AM »
35MP is good enough to print A2 size @ 300DPI, which is really disappointing. After Canon announced the 120MP APS-H sensor, I hoped their next FF camera would have the 200MP required to print B0 size @ 300DPI. This is very disappointing.

Rocky

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 01:04:40 AM »
A 35MP FF sensor is about the equivalent of a 13.6 MP APS C sensor.  I'm pretty sure there is no problem with almost all, if not all resolving a sensor like this.
Almost all consumer  grade lens from Canon will run into problem at FF with 35MP. Remember, with APS-C sensor, we are only using the middle of the image field (best performance area)of the lens. With FF we  are using the full frame (image field) of the lens. Even some L zoom lens will get into trouble for that. just look into lens test reports from slrgears.com. Some lens with very good result in APS-C sensor becomes unacceptable in the FF sensor.

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 01:04:40 AM »

richy

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 02:11:58 AM »
Thanks man, I needed a laugh. Pixel binning may not be of huge benefit to many but if you had worked with medium format digital you would understand the significance of the AA filter, and what it means to work without one.

I can see the sense in delaying and 30-35 mp would be the upper end of what I would want to see. Remember the 7d would be 45mp ish if it were full frame. Canon lenses aren't well known for being sharp in the corners anyway, for me thats not a huge issue, for some it is. I would hope people dropping nearly 10k on a camera wouldn't be using a rebel kit lens on it anyway, and L glass can mostly keep up with that kind of pixel density (the 100-400 probably stands out as one that wouldn't). I wish canon would keep the MP count under 30 though, if people need more then there is medium format which wouldn't sacrifice quality to get to 80mp.

Binning is useful in low light for sure, and in video. The big thing is the AA filter, if they do get rid of the AA filter it will make for a big change in the way we work with the files, closer to medium format. No real need for USM anymore, but careful shooting to avoid moire inducing patterns as much as possible and careful post to reduce or remove what is there.

I'm not sure on the whole waiting for a big jump thing, if they release next year that means the camera is going to be near finalized now anyway and be in the hands of folks being tested in the wild or at least very close to that stage.

Master_of_the_Universe

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 04:15:55 AM »
Proper pixel binning has huge ramifications for video.

Also huge for stills, especially with a high pixel count sensor.

It means massive sensitivity (ISO) at low noise.


Flake

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 04:42:47 AM »
After typing a huge post I lost it after I had to force the browser into compatibility mode because the site is too old to work with the latest software!  Time to upgrade the site !!

jouster

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2010, 07:50:07 AM »
Aah. Somebody's been wet-dreaming again.

Pixel-binning and weak/missing AA filter are technical characteristics that have no appeal for real photographers - just for the techno geeks that came up with this lame rumor. 

FAIL.

Ah, those "real" photographers again! Jeez, I remember back in the day when they wouldn't even use digital cameras! Or built-in metering or autofocus or zooms or or or...

There's *always* someone - usually many someones - looking for certain features, and they're just as "real" as you or me or the next guy.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 07:53:38 AM by jouster »

Rocky

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2010, 11:04:28 AM »
Proper pixel binning has huge ramifications for video.

Also huge for stills, especially with a high pixel count sensor.

It means massive sensitivity (ISO) at low noise.
PIXEL BINNING is not possible to be done at "raw" level for Bayer sensor. No camera maker dare to mention "pixel binning" except Sigma(they are using Foveon sensor). Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 11:29:15 AM »
Ah, those "real" photographers again! Jeez, I remember back in the day when they wouldn't even use digital cameras! Or built-in metering or autofocus or zooms or or or...

Yeah - just what the hell is a 'real' photographer, anyway?  If you give a 3 year old a beat-up Brownie, I think the kid is a real photographer!

But I guess it makes sense to divide 'us' into three camps - amateurs, pros, and artists.  Of those three, only the amateurs really care about the gear.  The pros care how much it costs relative to the desired output (and they are running a business, so they want the cheapest gear that can deliver the necessary results).  The artists care about the output, only.  So, while you might find amateurs with deep pockets using a Leica, and the occasional artist (of the non-starving variety), I doubt you'll find many 'pros' using Leica due to the relatively higher cost (and the proportionately lower return on investment).  I say not many, because I'm sure there are some (after all, even though pro photographers are business people, it doesn't mean they are good business people - a fact that frequently helps those who buy used gear from studios going under).
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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 11:29:15 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2010, 11:30:12 AM »
Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

Simple - you average the output of the two green pixels.
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Rocky

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 11:58:47 AM »
Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

Simple - you average the output of the two green pixels.
How about the red and the blue?? you cannot just average  one color without doing anything to the other 2 color.

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 11:58:47 AM »