November 26, 2014, 05:11:28 AM

Author Topic: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature  (Read 20811 times)

Rocky

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 11:04:28 AM »
Proper pixel binning has huge ramifications for video.

Also huge for stills, especially with a high pixel count sensor.

It means massive sensitivity (ISO) at low noise.
PIXEL BINNING is not possible to be done at "raw" level for Bayer sensor. No camera maker dare to mention "pixel binning" except Sigma(they are using Foveon sensor). Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 11:04:28 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 11:29:15 AM »
Ah, those "real" photographers again! Jeez, I remember back in the day when they wouldn't even use digital cameras! Or built-in metering or autofocus or zooms or or or...

Yeah - just what the hell is a 'real' photographer, anyway?  If you give a 3 year old a beat-up Brownie, I think the kid is a real photographer!

But I guess it makes sense to divide 'us' into three camps - amateurs, pros, and artists.  Of those three, only the amateurs really care about the gear.  The pros care how much it costs relative to the desired output (and they are running a business, so they want the cheapest gear that can deliver the necessary results).  The artists care about the output, only.  So, while you might find amateurs with deep pockets using a Leica, and the occasional artist (of the non-starving variety), I doubt you'll find many 'pros' using Leica due to the relatively higher cost (and the proportionately lower return on investment).  I say not many, because I'm sure there are some (after all, even though pro photographers are business people, it doesn't mean they are good business people - a fact that frequently helps those who buy used gear from studios going under).
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 11:30:12 AM »
Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

Simple - you average the output of the two green pixels.
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Rocky

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 11:58:47 AM »
Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

Simple - you average the output of the two green pixels.
How about the red and the blue?? you cannot just average  one color without doing anything to the other 2 color.

Osiris30

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 12:54:07 PM »
Aah. Somebody's been wet-dreaming again.

Pixel-binning and weak/missing AA filter are technical characteristics that have no appeal for real photographers - just for the techno geeks that came up with this lame rumor. 

FAIL.


People who write posts with "FAIL" are doing the same themselves.  Pixel binning can be used to reduce noise.  A 4:1 binning on a 36MP would yield a very clean 9MP image.  Also lack of an AA filter would be beneficial for some types of photography (landscape for example).  Neither of the above statements is an endorsement that Canon will do either, but to say these characteristics won't matter to photographers demonstrates your ignorance.

x-vision

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 12:57:27 PM »
Update: A contributor has had this to say about the AA filter rumor and that it’s unlikely Canon will remove it from the 1Ds Mark IV.

MF camera makers deleted AA filters primarily for reasons of cost, not image quality, as aliasing is very destructive. Yes, they do use software to “correct” this, but it does a terrible job. It’s an insoluble problem, because it’s a “many to one” issue for the software.
Large AA filters are very expensive to manufacture, particularly at MF quantities. A Pentax representative even stated flat out that cost was the sole reason they didn’t include one in the 645D.
Canon will delete the AA filter once resolutions get high enough that diffraction is the limiting factor.
 

Aha. So, somebody has been wet dreaming after all.

:o :o :o

Dear Canon Rumors,
Please add a special rating of CR-0 to the rating system for rumors like this one (or maybe CR-wet-dreaming or CR-just-kidding).
With a rating like this, we will still enjoy these rumors. But at least the credibility of this site will not suffer and certain pointless arguments will be avoided.

Bets regards and keep the good work

Osiris30

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 12:57:58 PM »
Proper pixel binning has huge ramifications for video.

Also huge for stills, especially with a high pixel count sensor.

It means massive sensitivity (ISO) at low noise.
PIXEL BINNING is not possible to be done at "raw" level for Bayer sensor. No camera maker dare to mention "pixel binning" except Sigma(they are using Foveon sensor). Bayer sensor is 2 green, 1 red and 1 blue as a group. How can you bin 3 color in 4 pixels ???  People tends to confuse down sizing with pixel binning.

You bin across and down the Bayer pattern, not adjacent pixels.


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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 12:57:58 PM »

traveller

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 01:12:56 PM »
If the 1Ds Mk4 is really being delayed, as more and more rumours are suggesting, what does this mean for the 5D Mk 3? The 5D Mk2 came out a year after the 1Ds Mk3; does this mean that the 5D Mk3 won't be released until 2012? Would Canon risk releasing a high resolution 5D line camera just a few months after a 1Ds line successor?

Are we going to start seeing divergence between the two product lines? The 1Ds Mk3 and 5D Mk2 had different processors (twin Digic 3s vs. single Digic 4), so with both lines presumably to use a new Digic 5 chip, would a 5D mk3 be able to maintain even a reasonable frame rate with half the 'horsepower', assuming the rumours that the 1Ds Mk4 will stay at 5 fps are correct (and that the reason for this is processing power -not necessarily a correct assumption, I know)? Even then, would 5 fps vs. 3.5 - 4 fps be enough of a differentiation for most potential buyers if the 5D Mk3's af system was upgraded to even 7D levels?

So, either the 1Ds Mk4 will be higher frame rate, have some new 'killer' features, will be cheaper relative to the 1Ds Mk3's price; or the 5D Mk3 will have a differnet sensor and target market.  The problem with believing the latter, is that if Canon were to keep the 21 MP sensor and improve the AF and shooting speed, the 5D Mk3 would look very attractive compared to the 1D Mk4!

Just thinking out loud...

kubelik

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010, 01:18:12 PM »
by the way, x-vision, you'll note that CRguy did not assign any CR value to this post ... which is basically the CR[0] designation you're talking about

macfly

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 02:05:43 PM »
Two things of note in this thread...

"Remember the 7d would be 45mp ish if it were full frame." Is that for real? I ask because I have no idea, but that could well make sense, meaning the MkIV at 45PM and the 5D MkIII at 28MP. That would be a clear enough differentiation to separate them, and also aim the MkIV squarely at the MF market. I'll be buying both regardless.

The other thing is all this f'ing pathetic crap about "real photographers". Listen, if we're here we love the art, craft, gear and lore of photography, and we are all real. It is just pathetic to be be putting people down because they don't match up to whatever you think is your expectation of real. And I can say that as someone with 35 years experience as a working photographer, so x-vision, seriously, take a running jump. (www.macfly.com)

unfocused

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010, 02:24:18 PM »
Quote
The other thing is all this f'ing pathetic crap about "real photographers".

Perfect. I don't think I've ever seen an "unreal" photographer. Would Clint Eastwood in the "Bridges of Madison County" count? David Hemmings in "Blow Up"? Maybe we should have a contest: Who is your favorite unreal photographer?
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010, 02:35:34 PM »
How about the red and the blue?? you cannot just average  one color without doing anything to the other 2 color.

Kodak makes a 4/3 CCD with a Bayer mask that bins up to 4x4.  Check out the specs.  It's not averaging, per se, but a progressive scan.
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macfly

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 02:41:50 PM »
Unfocused, now thats a great call! 

Pretty hard to beat David Hemmings in Blow-up! but maybe I'd add Faye Dunaway for Eyes of Laura Mars (based on Rebecca Blake and her pictures) and also or those of you of a certain age I always thought that Alexander Enberg's portral of Chris von Wagenheim in Gia was pretty great. However, those were both real photographers, like my granny with her Olympus happy snapper, and my 4 year old niece with Powershot. We are at sea in a world of photographers, and I think finding an unreal one may be quite a persuit, could even be harder than finding the real details of the upcoming MkIV!

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 02:41:50 PM »

unexposure

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2010, 02:55:35 PM »
Maybe we should have a contest: Who is your favorite unreal photographer?

SPIDERMAN!


ok... something more serious...

a typical bayer pattern would look like this:


so binning for a Bayer sensor would mean, binning pixel-clusters of 2x2 resulting in 4x4 binned-clusters rather than real pixel-binning which would only be possible in similar-to-foveon-type-sensors.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 03:01:52 PM by unexposure »

Osiris30

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 03:07:26 PM »
Maybe we should have a contest: Who is your favorite unreal photographer?

SPIDERMAN!


ok... something more serious...

a typical bayer pattern would look like this:


so binning for a Bayer sensor would mean, binning pixel-clusters of 2x2 resulting in 4x4 binned-clusters rather than real pixel-binning which would only be possible in similar-to-foveon-type-sensors.

Correct.. which is what I keep calling (rightly or wrongly) 4:1 binning.  A 36MP sensor would bin down to 9MP.  This is why I don't *not* believe the binning.  9MP in very low light would probably be sufficient detail if it was super clean.  Now that the MP count is high enough to support 4:1 I think it's a viable technology.


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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 03:07:26 PM »