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Author Topic: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature  (Read 19990 times)

Grendel

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 03:18:21 PM »
"Remember the 7d would be 45mp ish if it were full frame." Is that for real? I ask because I have no idea, but that could well make sense, meaning the MkIV at 45PM and the 5D MkIII at 28MP.

Yes: 18MP / (22.3 x 14.9 mm) * (36.0 x 24.0 mm) = 46.8MP

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 03:18:21 PM »

c.d.embrey

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2010, 03:57:25 PM »
Theory is nice , but reality is better.

Phase One is shipping the P 65+ (8984 x 6732, Full res. 60.5mp 50-800 ISO and sensor+ 15.0mp and 200-3200 ISO) and the P 40+ (7320 x 5484, Full res. 40mp 50-800 ISO and Sensor+ 10mp 200-3200 ISO). http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/P65/P65-Tech-Specs.aspx

The big question is will Canon ever do something like these Phase One cameras?

unexposure

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2010, 04:40:03 PM »
The big question is will Canon ever do something like these Phase One cameras?
considering, that by having a 1:4 cluster-binning for those p1 models that results in four times the highest iso level, imagine what this would be in a potential 1ds mk4 (102.400 high-iso non-binned?) ... ISO 409.600 ?!
What exactly would that be usefull for?

Ivar

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2010, 04:42:23 PM »
You seem to miss Leaf 80MP beast ;-)

http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212.asp

Theory is nice , but reality is better.

Phase One is shipping the P 65+ (8984 x 6732, Full res. 60.5mp 50-800 ISO and sensor+ 15.0mp and 200-3200 ISO) and the P 40+ (7320 x 5484, Full res. 40mp 50-800 ISO and Sensor+ 10mp 200-3200 ISO). http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/P65/P65-Tech-Specs.aspx

The big question is will Canon ever do something like these Phase One cameras?

Ivar

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2010, 04:46:17 PM »
btw, because of business optimization, the 1Ds4 will give a nice hint for the next 1D model when a new 1Ds is released with the Digic 5. 45MP promises something like 22MP camera, which I suppose is in FF format this time, the king of high iso.

Osiris30

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2010, 04:51:07 PM »
Theory is nice , but reality is better.

Phase One is shipping the P 65+ (8984 x 6732, Full res. 60.5mp 50-800 ISO and sensor+ 15.0mp and 200-3200 ISO) and the P 40+ (7320 x 5484, Full res. 40mp 50-800 ISO and Sensor+ 10mp 200-3200 ISO). http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/P65/P65-Tech-Specs.aspx

The big question is will Canon ever do something like these Phase One cameras?


Congrats... everyone just found out what will differentiate the new 5D from the 1Ds... Canon simply won't do pixel binning on the 5D.  This gives them room to improve the 5D line and a *key* feature to differentiate the 1Ds.  Pixel binning would be huge is potential advantage for low-light and/or extreme high quality work.


unfocused

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2010, 05:36:33 PM »
Quote
I always thought that Alexander Enberg's portral of Chris von Wagenheim in Gia was pretty great.

You mean there was a guy in "Gia?" For some reason I never noticed.  :)
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2010, 05:36:33 PM »

epsiloneri

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2010, 07:04:01 PM »
This gives them room to improve the 5D line and a *key* feature to differentiate the 1Ds. Pixel binning would be huge is potential advantage for low-light and/or extreme high quality work.

Why is that? The only advantage I see with in-camera binning is size of files/speed (which is nice, but I don't see the huge potential). One might also save some readout noise, but I doubt that's significant in most situations.

jouster

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2010, 07:13:08 PM »
Theory is nice , but reality is better.

Phase One is shipping the P 65+ (8984 x 6732, Full res. 60.5mp 50-800 ISO and sensor+ 15.0mp and 200-3200 ISO) and the P 40+ (7320 x 5484, Full res. 40mp 50-800 ISO and Sensor+ 10mp 200-3200 ISO). http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/P65/P65-Tech-Specs.aspx

The big question is will Canon ever do something like these Phase One cameras?


My guess would be yes in megapixels; probably not in sensor size. The biggest of the sensors you link is substantially larger than a FF from Canon and that isn't including the 80 MP linked above. Canon would need to change its lenses completely for those sensor sizes to be viable.
 

Osiris30

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2010, 07:20:53 PM »
This gives them room to improve the 5D line and a *key* feature to differentiate the 1Ds. Pixel binning would be huge is potential advantage for low-light and/or extreme high quality work.

Why is that? The only advantage I see with in-camera binning is size of files/speed (which is nice, but I don't see the huge potential). One might also save some readout noise, but I doubt that's significant in most situations.

Actually noise performance could be improved non-trivially in a binned environment.  Basically you are working with 4 times the number of data sources, so the random variance because 1/4 as strong.  I'm definitely not using the right terminology right now (you'll have to forgive me, it's been a *very* long day at the office), but I did want to respond with a general direction of what I'm thinking.  I'll respond later tonight or tomorrow in more detail if you would like, but long story made very short, you have 4x the signal to 1x the noise in a 4:1 (2x2) bin.  That is significant.

epsiloneri

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2010, 07:47:11 PM »
Actually noise performance could be improved non-trivially in a binned environment.  Basically you are working with 4 times the number of data sources, so the random variance because 1/4 as strong.  I'm definitely not using the right terminology right now (you'll have to forgive me, it's been a *very* long day at the office), but I did want to respond with a general direction of what I'm thinking.  I'll respond later tonight or tomorrow in more detail if you would like, but long story made very short, you have 4x the signal to 1x the noise in a 4:1 (2x2) bin.  That is significant.

I understand that binning increases the signal/noise per pixel, but my point is that the binning doesn't need to be in camera. You can later bin the full resolution raw image in software with the same noise improvement. But perhaps you were referring to some other advantage?

(the S/N will improve 2x for 2x2 binning: the signal increases 4x but the noise only 2x because of the tendency of random noise to "cancel out" when you add it up - that's why adding up 4 noisy pixels only gives twice the noise as a single pixel)

Rocky

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2010, 08:20:55 PM »
Maybe we should have a contest: Who is your favorite unreal photographer?


SPIDERMAN!


ok... something more serious...

a typical bayer pattern would look like this:


so binning for a Bayer sensor would mean, binning pixel-clusters of 2x2 resulting in 4x4 binned-clusters rather than real pixel-binning which would only be possible in similar-to-foveon-type-sensors.


Correct.. which is what I keep calling (rightly or wrongly) 4:1 binning.  A 36MP sensor would bin down to 9MP.  This is why I don't *not* believe the binning.  9MP in very low light would probably be sufficient detail if it was super clean.  Now that the MP count is high enough to support 4:1 I think it's a viable technology.

If you bin the 4 pixel from the same color,you will have a big effect on the sharpness. because the binned pixel will be over lapping the other 2 color. You will end up a blurry picture. Let us face it, if the binning is so easy, All camera manufacturer could have done it.  Just remember that 3 MP is good for 8X10.  Up to 15 years ago, "professional "digital camera is only 2 MP.  So If binning is that easy, they could have given us a 2 stop extra sensitivity and less noise picture at 4.5 MP from a 18 Mp sensor. If it was true. I would take it anytime for the low light situation.

c.d.embrey

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2010, 10:52:29 PM »
You seem to miss Leaf 80MP beast ;-)

http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus212.asp

Theory is nice , but reality is better.

Phase One is shipping the P 65+ (8984 x 6732, Full res. 60.5mp 50-800 ISO and sensor+ 15.0mp and 200-3200 ISO) and the P 40+ (7320 x 5484, Full res. 40mp 50-800 ISO and Sensor+ 10mp 200-3200 ISO). http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/P65/P65-Tech-Specs.aspx

The big question is will Canon ever do something like these Phase One cameras?



You seem to have missed the point! The discussion isn't about the highest MP available, it's about variable image sensors like the P 65+ shooting at 60.5 MP ISO 50-800 and also the sensor+ setting that gives 15 MP at 200-3200 ISO. This is a feature that many posters seem want on the 1Ds IV.

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2010, 10:52:29 PM »

unexposure

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2010, 03:36:43 AM »
If you bin the 4 pixel from the same color,you will have a big effect on the sharpness. because the binned pixel will be over lapping the other 2 color. You will end up a blurry picture. Let us face it, if the binning is so easy, All camera manufacturer could have done it.
That's the point. Binning isn't as easy as one might imagine, due to the mechanism how bayer sensors work. For Foveon-Type-Sensors it's pretty simple. Basically it's like this: Take the information from the pixels that are designated for binning, add their values and divorce by the number of binned pixels to get your result.
Bayer is more complicated even without binning, since in a microcluster you have 2 green, 1 blue and 1 red sensitive pixel (due to the different bandwidth of light that arrives at pixel level). But rather than those four pixels beeing "smashed" together to result in one final pixel color (which would also result in some kind of binning) the pixels itself influence each other in values. So for example a blue pixel can deliver yellow color if blue light is none, but the green an the red pixels next to the blue one deliver high values.

Now you might have to options to work with:
a) "Glueing together" the microcluster (2x2) to result in one larger pixel. This however would be the easy way to achieve what is considered more sensivity per pixel, but on the other hand, you don't really increase dynamic range and only poorly increase color sensivity due to the way, the pixels influence each other already at the current state of technics in bayer sensors.
b) Clustering the microclusters (2x2 clusters of 2x2). This is pretty hard to imagine, since "sticking together" the clusters would result in variant a) but that's not the goal. The thing how this works out is to have 4 times the information of green, 4 times the information of red and 4 times the information of blue (so a cluster would have 8 green, 4 red, 4 blue pixels) to interact with each other, rather than really reducing it to four single sources of information. let's take the picture i posted before to have a look at it: Pick a single blue pixel - for casual bayer calculation, based on this layout, your information-giving neighbor-pixels are the green on top, the green on left, the red on upper left. In a binned enviroment you would consider the 4 inner pixels as your "binned pixels" from which surround arranged pixels you get that information needed to produce the color. For example, take the upper left blue one: Information for Red is four times available from upper right, lower right, upper left, lower left - now these values are added up and divided by four to achieve the value for red. for green these would be the upper and the left one, the upper and the right one, the lower and the right one and the lower and the left one, resulting in 8 pixels ginving information for green, divided by 4 to achieve the resulting value. same goes for all other pixels in this 2x2-center of the cluster. the reduced overall pixels are due to line interleaving of the outer pxiels, which are only used as interferring pixels.
the result is, you get a slightly less good signal-noise ratio than in variant a) but an impressivly improved color-sensivity and also an sligthly increased dynamic range in higher iso-modes.

however neither of the options I described is, what binning would practically work like in bayer sensors since it's a whole lot more complicated. but it should give you an example for why it's not implemented in current "low cost" cameras, since the processors just cant provide enough calculation-ressources to do the job for variant b). Variant a) on the other hand is just the same you could achieve bei scaling the image on your computer down to 25%, taking an algorithm that respecs the medium color values for each pixel that is combined. as i stated earlier, for foveon-type sensors, this method really works out well, since every pixel already has all the information provided on it's own. For bayer-type, this might result in some kind of blurry thing.

unexposure

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2010, 05:50:47 AM »
I have to add something to my post:

Phase One does it this way (pdf). They practically do an option c) which is: separating green from red and blue into two overlapping "layers" to reduce the gaps in pixel density and as a result can use method a slightly different method a) to bin the pixels. Considering, that the pixel-density of a fullframe-sensor at 45mp would be at least double as high as on a medium-format p45+ sensor, so it might even be possible to use this method whithout rotating the green-layer.

Another Example of how it could be done is shown by fuji's exr technics. Here it's basically another arrangement of the color-array to do 1:2 binning called pixel fusion. The article linked explains it very well.

I guess at the end, the only one who can give a real answer on this issue is canon itself - but even regarding registered patents by canon does not really deliver any clear answer at the current time.

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Re: *UPDATE* 1Ds Mark IV Feature
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2010, 05:50:47 AM »