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Author Topic: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera  (Read 22872 times)

breningstall

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 09:16:52 PM »
I have to disagree with you on the question of whether a Canon mirrorless is necessary. Canon desperately needs a high quality camera in a small form factor. Neither the S100 nor the G12 are up to the task, in this regard- each has point-and-shoot sized sensors, clunky zoom operations, tediously slow autofocus, etc. A slight upgrade or a modest sensor size bump won't do the job, what is needed is to rethink the entire operation. While the mirrorless market has become a crowded field, none of the companies have gotten the basic fundamentals right. This is what is needed: 1) a high quality sensor (APS-C or better), 2) fast pancake primes, 3) an viewfinder with strong manual focus capabilities, 4) fast autofocus, at least in single servo mode, and 5) weather sealing to take advantage of mirrorless' ideal size for travel and backpacking. All of these features are in existence, none has been pulled together by a single company. I'm not worried about whether Canon comes through with a mirrorless, though. Even if they don't come out with something in 2012, I expect that one or more other companies will final release a model that fulfills the above criteria. Fuji and Pentax are rumored to have new systems in the works and Samsung and Olympus may or may not get around to release a pro version of their mirrorless lines (I hold out no hope for Sony, those lens choices are abysmal). If Canon wants to continue specializing in monster-size L lenses for pros and flimsy plastic EF-S garbage for people wanting lighter weight, that's their choice, but in that case there will quite a few Canon users (myself included) who will be devoting more of their purchasing dollars toward other brands willing to fill this need.

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 09:16:52 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 09:55:27 PM »
Quote
flimsy plastic EF-S garbage for people wanting lighter weight, that's their choice,


Would that be flimsy plastic like these? 
Small | Large


(Longtime readers, I apologize for recycling this video which many of you are already familiar with. Just making a point here.)
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Caps18

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2011, 10:09:37 PM »
Good post breningstall.

There is a market for a travel size crop sensor camera that can fit in a pocket.  I'm not sure Canon is the company that will get there first however, and I think they should take the G12 and turn it into this camera.

A lot of people are just using their phones to take pictures now, so I would think that there would be a more of a market fr a higher end portable camera for those who care about the quality and different photos a real camera can take.
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Jnewton

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 10:21:52 PM »
Personally, I'd like to see a full size sensor mirrorless body with interchangeable lens.  If the price was in the 1000-1500 dollars I'd be all over it. Something along the lines of the M9 would be great.  As for it being a niche, well, maybe, but I know several people who would crawl all over such a camera.  Maybe it is time for canon to explore the "niche" market. 

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 10:28:15 PM »
Quote
A lot of people are just using their phones to take pictures now, so I would think that there would be a more of a market fr a higher end portable camera for those who care about the quality and different photos a real camera can take.

This is what I can't get past. The majority of people are happy just using their phones. Serious enthusiasts are more likely to go for DSLRs. The point-and-shoot market is over-saturated already and being eroded by phones. So, where do these mirrorless cameras fit in? The mirrorless are as expensive as a DSLR. Are they selling them primarily to gadget freaks who just want the latest technology?

While I would definitely go for a Fuji/Leica style APS-C rangefinder, I don't think of that as a mass consumer market camera.

I can't shake the feeling that the Sony, Panasonic, etc. mirrorless represent a transitional technology. I've no doubt that Canon is watching the market closely and if and when they jump in, they have the resources to offer a category killer if they choose. I'd love to see what their market research shows.

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BigDaddyM

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 11:13:23 PM »
Personally, if Canon just greatly improves the "G" series (APS-C and a 24-70mm equivalent lens with f2.0 throughout the zoom), then they will have something awesome. I don't need high megapixels but I do want a fast lens and sensor in a small form factor.

Sony proved that most can be done. The only thing that Sony NEX-7 does not have is a fast lens (24-70) that is pancake in size. I find it silly to have mirrorless and then a massive lens.

Canon has won me in the DSLR market, but for compact, I use a LX3. I only wish that it had a APS-C size sensor and if the next "G" was that, Canon will have my money.
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elflord

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 11:30:16 PM »
Canon is sitting pretty already with the G12, G13 coming up, and the s100.
Depending on whether size or buttons are more important, these are 2
excellent substitutes for mirrorless.

They already have the IQ & fast lenses in these cameras.

Is there an imminent G13 ? I haven't heard of one and suspect it is on track for extinction because it is bulkier than cameras with much bigger sensors.

While the S100 and G12 have better IQ than "traditional" compacts, they can't compete with big sensor mirrorless cameras that have sensors 4 times as large. Likewise, the lenses are fast if you compare them to other zooms, but not primes.

Quote
Just what could Canon gain with yet another "me-too" mirrorless with interchangeable lenses?

They need a bigger sensor in their G12 replacement or it simply won't be competitive. It doesn't need to be an interchangeable lens camera -- they could take a similar approach to fuji.

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 11:30:16 PM »

elflord

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2011, 11:37:16 PM »
This is what I can't get past. The majority of people are happy just using their phones. Serious enthusiasts are more likely to go for DSLRs.

DSLRs dominate in the US, but mirrorless is doing better in Japan. So it's not clear that DSLRs automatically win the high end amateur market.

Quote
The point-and-shoot market is over-saturated already and being eroded by phones. So, where do these mirrorless cameras fit in?

Yuppies and enthusiasts who want a more compact camera. Basically, the high end amateur market.

Quote
I can't shake the feeling that the Sony, Panasonic, etc. mirrorless represent a transitional technology. I've no doubt that Canon is watching the market closely and if and when they jump in, they have the resources to offer a category killer if they choose. I'd love to see what their market research shows.

They no doubt are watching the market, but  if they went for a system camera, they would need to develop a camera, a new lens mount and a decent assortment of glass.  Even then, it won't be a category killer to begin with because much like Sony, they will trail m43 in their lens offerings.

dealaddict

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2011, 11:54:19 PM »
i don't agreed.  The fact is that the sales of mirrorless camera takes 30% of the total camera sale in Japan.  And mirrorless camera is more popular in Asia.  This shows that there is a market for good quality (mainly due to larger sensor) and smaller than DSLR camera.  The size of DSLR is driving many people away.  Like me, I shoot with Canon 5D and L lenses, but I pick up my NEX more and more often because of the size.  Sometimes I just go out for dinner and I don't know if I will take any pictures, but I still would bring my NEX with me just in case, but I won't bring my 5D.  Also, last time I went for a trip with my 2 kids, I want to travel light so I just bring my NEX.  To me, it is quite stupid that Canon doesn't get into this market.  I don't think a G12 be able to capture same quality picture as the NEX for my kids playing indoor.  I agree that mirroless doesn't need to have interchagable lens, but the fact is, you can't make a all in one lens with big aperture with big sensor.  If Canon can make the G13 with APSC sensor and a 24-70 F2.8 with the same size as the G12, then it will be a killer, but it seems not possible. 

dilbert

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 12:54:17 AM »
Quote
Can we make a compact or DSLR that can beat the mirrorless cameras? (they believe they have it)

If that is Canon's official line then they don't understand what has made mirrorless cameras popular.

#1 size
#2 picture quality through real lenses
#3 weight

We haul around kilograms of camera gear because that's what we've grown up with or have been led to believe is required because there were no other alternatives for decent IQ (the lenses on most fixed lens cameras is nowhere near that of real glass.)

The small form factor mirrorless camera system solves the weight problem (luggage, walking around on location, hiking, etc), IQ issues with larger sensors (and the NEX-7 is now APS-C) and size (no pentaprism, etc.)

No matter what your DSLR, it will not resolve #1 and #3 can be solved  by using alternate materials as shrinking it will eventually make it unusable.

torger

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2011, 01:25:15 AM »
It seems unlikely to me that Canon would make a mirroless with Leice M9-like quality. Making a whole new set of high quality lenses etc.

Mirrorless will be cheap, and probably not much better than the Nikon V1/J1 toys.

In the very long term mirrorless designs will more than likely replace DSLRs (when technology allows them to be better at everything than DSLRs), so at some point a high quality system need to appear but this is not the time I think.

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 01:43:46 AM »
The whole marketing hype of mirrorless cameras is the ability to have a camera with DSLR quality images at the size of the point and shoot. The closest camera to that promise the the GF3X, but that would mean to maintain that size profile, you will need to stick to pancakes or that one lens. Still the GF3X is bigger than the G12.

I have yet seen any photos comparing the NEX-5N + SEL 18-200mm vs DSLR. Would it really be that small?

If we could just take a step back from all that marketing hype that all the mirrorless camera manufacturers poured onto us and take a clear look at the true value proposition of mirrorless cameras, we would realize that this is still a highly un-established market segment. If not for their ability to use classic MF lenses, note that mirrorless lenses are often poor in quality and high in price. Now, do I want a collection of those lenses, definitely not.

Hillsilly

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2011, 02:26:15 AM »
Maybe Canon has something special in mind with the fixed lens idea?  There's a picture of the Canonet 28 on the front page.  Maybe that's a hint?  Or a clue?  or both?  I hate it when CanonRumors teases us like this!

Perhaps Canon are planning a full frame replica of the Canonet?  While the 28 (pictured) would be ok, I hope they do it properly and go with the QL17 or QL19 GIII.  I wonder if they've still got the Canonet factory mothballed somewhere?  They just have to dust off the cobwebs and work out how to whack in a 1DX sensor and an LCD and could be knocking these babies out in a few months.  They'd sell like hotcakes!
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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2011, 02:26:15 AM »

LuckyRosco

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2011, 02:44:23 AM »
I have recently bought the Sony NEX-5N, I wanted something with better image quality than my G12 but smaller/lighter than my 5DMII & 7D. I think Canon is missing out on this Niche market. They wouldn't have to create a whole new lens line. Just use the EF-S mount and you'll have a instant line of quality lens for the new camera. They wouldn't have to make it compatible with the EF mount, because I doubt someone is going to attach a 70-200L II to something so small.

I would just hope that the image quality is better than the NEX-5N. After comparing the camera against my 7D, the 7D beats it hands down in performance. Even with my 18-55 kit lens.

Doodah

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2011, 03:16:53 AM »
I think the single most important detail has been left out in CR guy's 3-point synopsis. Canon is contemplating releasing small mirrorless cameras in 2012 besides high-end DSLRs and compact cameras!!! The key considerations are the 3 points raised in CR guy's summary.

If one understands Mandarin, the following site provides a good translation from the original Japanese pdf article: http://forum.xitek.com/showthread.php?threadid=949600

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Re: Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2011, 03:16:53 AM »