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Author Topic: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]  (Read 28677 times)

traveller

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
I can't see APS-H returning in the 7D line, I think that for all intents and purposes it is now dead. 

I could see Canon upping a lot of the specifications of the 7D Mk. II to turn it into a mini-1D X, now that the 1D series has gone full frame.  I could also see that staying at 18MP would work within this marketing scheme; the only problem would be selling this sensor in lower end cameras, now that the other manufacturers are starting to push megapixels.

P.S. In case you didn't get the message from many of the review sites, more megapixels are good now that it isn't Canon leading the way.  Indeed, once Nikon adopt the 24MP Sony APS-C sensor, DP Review will declare that they don't know how they managed to live with so few previously (hell they even gave the A77 one whole percent more than the D7000  -that's quite something!). 

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »

AprilForever

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2011, 06:43:56 PM »
I can't see APS-H returning in the 7D line, I think that for all intents and purposes it is now dead. 

I could see Canon upping a lot of the specifications of the 7D Mk. II to turn it into a mini-1D X, now that the 1D series has gone full frame.  I could also see that staying at 18MP would work within this marketing scheme; the only problem would be selling this sensor in lower end cameras, now that the other manufacturers are starting to push megapixels.

P.S. In case you didn't get the message from many of the review sites, more megapixels are good now that it isn't Canon leading the way.  Indeed, once Nikon adopt the 24MP Sony APS-C sensor, DP Review will declare that they don't know how they managed to live with so few previously (hell they even gave the A77 one whole percent more than the D7000  -that's quite something!).

Indeed they are good. And may we see many more of them!
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moreorless

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2011, 01:19:48 AM »
I understand that but I addressed that issue in my post. Users of the 7D that want to update (ones with lots of EF-S) can look at the new xxD. The APS-C market is a little too crowded. I think moving the 7D up and allowing the 70D to return the xxD line to it's historic position could work. Make it a $1400 camera with some of the speed and possibly the AF system of the 7D and a new sensor. As it stands Canon has 4 cameras with the same sensor between $800 and $1400

No one here has suggested that you lose your 1.6 crop. If you want that there will be plenty of new 1.6 crop cameras (xxD)

All of this is useless anyway because Canon isn't going to do it. The 7D will be APS-C and it will have tons of MPs.

7D users buying a 70D means less money for Canon though and as has been said theres less of a draw for 1D users aswell if the 7D remains ASPH with no extra crop.

I agree the 7D mk2 and the 70D could do with more space between them than between the 7D/60D but I don't think ASPH is needed for that, just up the 7D mk2's FPS and AF plus possible use different ASPC sensors with the 70D upping megapixels and the 7D mk2 ISO performance.

The 1D mk4 is hardly that old either so Canon really isnt in desperate need of a new ASPH body in the short term, I'd guess they'll see how it sells compaired to the 1DX and 7D mk2 in 2012 and make a decision from there.

JonJT

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2011, 03:37:50 AM »
I don't know how people are so certain on how the 7D mkII will be built. It's all speculation at this point and the EF-S lens argument doesn't matter. Do you really think Canon is overly concerned about how you chose to invest in lenses? They are still a business out to make money. As stated in a previous post, the 70D is likely going to be better than the 7D, so there's always that IF Canon puts in a larger sensor. If they stick with APC-S, then EF-S users can rejoice. The point is that no one knows for sure.

What I THINK is happening is that Canon is restructuring their Pro lineup and there will be big changes. What ever happens, I think it will be an exciting year for Canon with new bodies and lenses coming out on the market.

They most certainly care.  Companies care a lot about the buying habits of their customers.  Catering to those habits is exactly how companies make money.  Just how did you think Canon, or any company for that matter, plans on making money if they don't care about what their customers want and what they purchase????


Edit: As a counter point to your argument, take even a cursory look at the American automotive industry.  In short, people knew what they wanted and it was not what the big three were offering.  Today, those same companies model their designs after and aspire to rival the aesthetics of the Euro automakers while achieving the same reliability as the Japanese.  All this, because people were, largely, telling them to f' off and it was affecting their bottom line.  Canon WILL listen to an extent, it's life depends on it. 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 03:42:48 AM by JonJT »

D_Rochat

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2011, 04:09:34 AM »
I'm still not convinced. I'm sure they care just enough to not have their customer's running to another company. And I hardly doubt anyone would switch brands over an APS-H in a 7D mkII, especially since the cost of replacing lenses is their main concern. Think of the cost to switch systems entirely.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to put Canon down in any way or sour with them. I just still believe they are just another company trying to turn a profit any way they think they can. If they think they'll make more money in the long run with a new sensor, I don't believe pissing off a few EF-S users is going to be a big deal to them. Besides, if they really cared, they would allow EF-S lenses to attach to FF and APS-H bodies and make everyone happy.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2011, 04:43:12 AM »
APS-H...I am familiar with the APS-C crop factor, and full frame speaks for itself.  APS-H would cause headaches for anybody moving up from Rebel bodies or the 7D, unless they had mostly wide (edit: non-EF-S, at that) zooms that they wanted to be wider.  I have mostly primes and I generally want my zoom lens to be longer.  I'm not ready to bury APS-H but I don't see it being an easy upgrade proposition from Canon for the 7D.  For better or worse, it's always been an oddball FL.  APS-C being a de facto format size might end up being the deciding factor for Canon even more than the increased cost of producing APS-H sensors.

About the idea of a 7D upgrade, I am somewhat enthusiastic.  I had wanted to skip the 18mp generation entirely, but I am not seeing any quality loss and in fact see some slight quality increase on the 7D in some cases - it is mostly a slight increase, however.  Coupled with the great price I got mine at making the cost of upgrade less painful to eat, I do not see any reason to expect a 7D successor this year wouldn't be a worthy upgrade.

The Nikon V1/J1 may look like just a goofy inbetweener product right now, but the pretty clean quality of its ISO 800 files means that Canon needs to update its own sensors to stay ahead of the curve, if even tiny-sensor mirrorless cameras can approach its size.

briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2011, 05:14:11 AM »
I suspect that 7D owners swearing allegiance to APS-C have not had the pleasure of a 1D4. Totally different ball game as I found out.

There is no way I would go back to an APS-C having made the jump.

7D is a good camera, just in a different league from the 1D4
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:33:50 AM by briansquibb »

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2011, 05:14:11 AM »

traveller

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2011, 05:34:52 AM »
I don't think it is the EF-S lens issue that would decide whether a 7D Mk. II would be APS-C; it is more likely to be the position that Canon wishes to market the 1D X in.  If Canon were to fit the 7D Mk. II with an upgraded APS-H sensor, they would risk 1D Mk.IV users who wanted the extra reach moving to the 7D Mk. II instead of the 1D X, costing them thousands in lost margins. 

I think that it would pay Canon to place the 7D Mk. II at the top of the crop line with all the goodies (and I do mean all: AF & metering systems and 10+ fps burst rate) from the 1D X except the full frame sensor.  I think that this could be done now that the 1D line has moved away from APS-H and created a clearer marketing distinction.  If Canon were smart enough to implement the 1D series control system (button layout etc) like Nikon do with the D300 - D3, it would also make the 7D Mk. II an attractive second (or third) body for 1D X users when more reach is required. 

AprilForever

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2011, 06:35:37 AM »
I don't know how people are so certain on how the 7D mkII will be built. It's all speculation at this point and the EF-S lens argument doesn't matter. Do you really think Canon is overly concerned about how you chose to invest in lenses? They are still a business out to make money. As stated in a previous post, the 70D is likely going to be better than the 7D, so there's always that IF Canon puts in a larger sensor. If they stick with APC-S, then EF-S users can rejoice. The point is that no one knows for sure.

What I THINK is happening is that Canon is restructuring their Pro lineup and there will be big changes. What ever happens, I think it will be an exciting year for Canon with new bodies and lenses coming out on the market.



They most certainly care.  Companies care a lot about the buying habits of their customers.  Catering to those habits is exactly how companies make money.  Just how did you think Canon, or any company for that matter, plans on making money if they don't care about what their customers want and what they purchase????


Edit: As a counter point to your argument, take even a cursory look at the American automotive industry.  In short, people knew what they wanted and it was not what the big three were offering.  Today, those same companies model their designs after and aspire to rival the aesthetics of the Euro automakers while achieving the same reliability as the Japanese.  All this, because people were, largely, telling them to f' off and it was affecting their bottom line.  Canon WILL listen to an extent, it's life depends on it.

Indeed. And I, and likely the vast majority of 7D users, would be quite upset to see our lenses shorter, our megapixels fewer, or other adulterations to what is 7D. What defines the 7D is high MP, ASP-C, with advanced AF, burst, and weather sealing. Changing parts of this makes it not a 7D.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 08:36:50 AM by AprilForever »
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briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2011, 10:23:00 AM »

Indeed. And I, and likely the vast majority of 7D users, would be quite upset to see our lenses shorter, our megapixels fewer, or other adulterations to what is 7D. What defines the 7D is high MP, ASP-C, with advanced AF, burst, and weather sealing. Changing parts of this makes it not a 7D.

I am sure 1D4 shooter will have a smile on their face with that comment  ;D ;D


AprilForever

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2011, 12:46:26 PM »

Indeed. And I, and likely the vast majority of 7D users, would be quite upset to see our lenses shorter, our megapixels fewer, or other adulterations to what is 7D. What defines the 7D is high MP, ASP-C, with advanced AF, burst, and weather sealing. Changing parts of this makes it not a 7D.

I am sure 1D4 shooter will have a smile on their face with that comment  ;D ;D

Let them.  ;D  ;D

Not everyone is rich enough to be one of them, so while the smiles, the masses must suffer with our gear we have...
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anthony11

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2011, 01:10:32 PM »
Since TFA didn't see fit to mention it, Photokina 2012 appears to be at the end of February.

JonJT

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 01:50:03 PM »
I'm still not convinced. I'm sure they care just enough to not have their customer's running to another company. And I hardly doubt anyone would switch brands over an APS-H in a 7D mkII, especially since the cost of replacing lenses is their main concern. Think of the cost to switch systems entirely.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to put Canon down in any way or sour with them. I just still believe they are just another company trying to turn a profit any way they think they can. If they think they'll make more money in the long run with a new sensor, I don't believe pissing off a few EF-S users is going to be a big deal to them. Besides, if they really cared, they would allow EF-S lenses to attach to FF and APS-H bodies and make everyone happy.

Eh, both Canon and Nikon have cared enough to do far more than "just" what was necessary to prevent their customers from running to another company.  Nothing says either will stop doing that now.
Let me just say that companies make money by addressing their customers needs.  This is a universal paradigm, PARTICULARLY in an industry that is as saturated and hasty as digital imaging.  Unless you happen to manufacturer for a very specific niche (Leica, Hasselbald, etc), you will loose ground if you don't innovate and listen to what your customers want. 


Anyway, you are right, people probably will not switch brands over a switch to an ASP-H sensor in the 7Dmkii but, it might mean that the upgrade path is cut off for a lot of people.  This is particularly true because an APS-H sensor costs quite a bit more to produce than an APS-C sensor, especially when you realize that APS-C sensors are used in the majority of Canon's cameras.  But, you are right, Canon is going to do what will make them the most profit but, I just think that such a decision is predicated more so on what customers want and need more than internal politics or, perhaps, technicalities.  And, I don't think the average 7D user really wants or needs the added expense of an APS-H 7Dmkii.

Edit: One other thing that came to mind.  Lens choice, aside from the general EF-S mount argument.  Remember that the previous APS-H camera was designed specifically with sport shooting in mind.  Sport shooting at the highest professional level.  The 7D is no such camera.  Pros and amateurs alike use this camera.  Canon knows this.  If the 7D becomes APS-H, there will be no suitable standard zooms or wide angle zooms for it.  That means that Canon has to develop and encourage everyone to buy a new camera body and 2 new lenses.  I don't think Canon wants to turn the 7D into a mini 1Dx.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 01:54:41 PM by JonJT »

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 01:50:03 PM »

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 03:37:40 PM »
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.

It was a niche/transitional sensor that has been overtaken by improvements in sensor technology. Unlike the ASP-C sensor, Canon saw early on that it did not have a long-term future and never made any lenses for the format.

Recent interviews with Canon executives make it pretty clear they feel the difference now between APS-C and full frame is so narrow that there isn't any point anymore in the APS-H sensor. Instead, they are contemplating if they need to offer a professional grade camera in the APS-C format for pro sports and wildlife shooters.

Add to this Fuji's work on organic sensor technology which they claim will allow them to produce a smaller sensor with image quality equal to or greater than current full frame sensors. Keep in mind that Fuji is the only competitor that Canon has acknowledged they are concerned about (with good reason, given Fuji's track record. Remember that Fuji was able to do something that Kodak proved incapable of doing: successfully transition from film to digital)

Canon did produce an experimental APS-H sensor of 120mp, but they also said they had no intention of bringing it into production. If it were ever to show up in a commercial product, the most likely use would be in video security cameras, not consumer still cameras.

If you want an APS-H sensor, buy a 1D MkIV. They are still available and still a great camera. But, don't expect to see the sensor show up in any new models and certainly don't think Canon would stick it into a 7D II.
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briansquibb

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 05:14:15 PM »
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:17:07 PM by briansquibb »

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Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 05:14:15 PM »