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Author Topic: Canon's Definition of Gray Market  (Read 34557 times)

tomscott

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 07:00:16 AM »
Well thats it. You get a standard world wide 1 year warranty with all the grey market established businesses too.

I had a problem with my 70-200mm MKII got in touch they rang a CPS certified repair company in Lincoln I think, was sent away free postage sorted the problem and came back perfect. That was with Digital Rev. TBH it was more difficult to get it sorted as at the time DR only had a customer service in HK so was some early morning phone calls but it all got sorted out relatively quickly.

To put it another way I bought a Tamron 150-600mm from Park cameras in the UK as Tamrons tend to be less reliable than Canon I paid the extra for the 6 year UK guarantee that comes with UK stock. I received a very early lens which didn't even have the first firmware update let alone the other 3! It also came in an unsealed box. So I sent it back, fortunately I determined it wasn't for me anyway and they were very understanding. I doubt you would get the understanding card from a grey market company, so you have to ensure its what you want.

Its horses for courses just because your buying from a "reputable" dealer doesn't mean you get a quality up to date product. Park were extremely good to deal with mind you and sorted it all out and I got a refund fairly quickly although i had to pay the postage to send back which was £30. I originally wanted another copy of my 70-200mm and to send it back to HK fully insured DHL the way it came… Was going to cost me £350… so glad digital rev now have a base in the UK to deal with all customer issues.

So I don't even think twice about it. The less the cameras and gear cost the more money I make and more I can spend, vicious cycle.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 03:10:02 PM by tomscott »
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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 07:00:16 AM »

rfdesigner

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 08:12:36 AM »
Well thats it. You get a standard world wide 1 year warranty with all the grey market established businesses too.

Not necessarily true.  It is possible to buy a 5DIII for ~£1450 here in the UK and get a 3 year warranty.. HDEW, (though lenses do seem to be 1 yr warranty)

Similar pricing disparity used to happen in the car market where people in the UK would have to pay as much as 50% more for the same models as those in Europe.  Once the EU standardised things people could buy any country specific model from any retailer throughout Europe.. effectively ending the right had drive premium, I do wonder what will happen if we leave the EU.
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unfocused

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 10:53:15 AM »
Not wanting to derail the conversation too much, but...

There was another thread that got shut down, discussing worker allegations of poor treatment at one of the two major photo dealers in New York.

I suggested that we all need to own up to our own part in these kinds of situations. The constant search to save a few dollars, which I am as guilty of as anyone, does have consequences.

It is hypocritical to merrily purchase products that circumvent the proper import channels on one hand and then on the other excoriate retailers who are forced to cut expenses to the bone in order to try to compete with these importers. Or, for that matter, to buy from these out-of-state retailers in order to evade local taxes and then wonder why our lcoal roads can't be repaired.

I don't know why Canon USA provides warranty repairs to products that are grey-market. It is costing them money and jobs. I appreciate their generosity and assume they have determined it makes good business sense to do so, but Nikon is certainly within their rights to decide otherwise.

As I say, I am as guilty as anyone. I am merely reminding us all that our actions do have consequences and in the United States at least, those consequences have lead to loss of jobs and a loss of opportunities, especially for our young people.

distant.star

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 12:15:21 PM »
Not wanting to derail the conversation too much, but...

There was another thread that got shut down, discussing worker allegations of poor treatment at one of the two major photo dealers in New York.

Be careful. You're talking about personal responsibility within communities, and that can be construed as political. Next thing someone will say something about a Persian carpet store and this thread goes in the toilet.

I still haven't figured out why the thread you mention got shut down. It was either because one of the "moderator" people thinks he really works for the U.S. "Homeland Security" gang or whether it had more to do with the business connection between that retailer and this site.

Someone started a subsequent thread to continue that original discussion; that has now disappeared. Coming to this site always invokes for me thoughts of GDR and Stasi.
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zim

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 01:21:30 PM »
I buy all my gear "grey market" because here in the UK the import tax and electronics tax is ridiculous meaning the product is often 1/3 or more expensive then the US equivalent.

Also all my gear has come in UK packaging with UK instructions, plugs etc. The only items that haven't have been from the US, but as all the cables can just be switched out it doesn't matter and with lenses even less so.

A 5DMKIII in the UK is £2249 in the US its $2499. With currency conversions $2499 is £1594 £655 difference.
That equates to 30% more expensive. Its a no brainer. £655 is another lens its crazy, yes you get tax back in the UK as a working pro but the rate is only 20% so your still paying £200 more, and its a yearly thing thats offset so the upfront cost is more. When buying grey market there is no tax value to add either so it doesn't matter what state your in so that $2499 is flat rate. Those are B&H prices too, digital rev for example has a 5DMKIII at £1639 and SLR Hut has it at £1399. SLR hut is an american importer and that equates to $2149 $350 dollar saving.

The dollar is strong to the yen atm so it makes more sense to import US rather than from Hong Kong. Ive bought everything from DR but bought a 7DMKII for £800 yesterday from SLR HUT thats over £400 cheaper… it will be here in 3 days… crazy.

Ive had no problem at all sending my gear to CPS UK for repairs and cleaning don't bat an eyelid. So for me it makes no sense to spend the extra money on UK stock makes no difference what so ever.

Here in the UK CPS uses canon authorised repair centres rather than it being canon itself. Its all BS if you ask me, squeeze some more money out of people.

As you only get a 1 year warranty which is disgusting seen as tho the price is so high it doesn't matter anyway you will be paying for repairs. If it came with a 3 or 5 year warranty which seems normal to me… then the extra price hike would be worth it. But most retailers in the UK will charge £350+ for gear worth up to £2500 seen as tho most of my gear is over £1500 that price is just ridiculous.

Even as a working pro the likelihood of a product having a problem is so slim. Infact I've never had a problem under the 1 year mark. Canons products are so well built you should be getting a 3 year warranty with it as standard just like pretty much any other product.

Couldn't agree more and there is another factor I take into account, as an amateur I'm never at the front of the buying curve, at least one normally two years behind. Canon is pretty solid as it is so anything major like adding black tape  :)  is pretty much sorted out. Over and above that I use HDEW and get 3 years warranty on bodies, 1 on lenses.

RGF

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2015, 10:19:54 PM »
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more..    I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon..  one more reason to stick with Canon.

actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency

rfdesigner

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2015, 05:47:33 PM »
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more..    I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon..  one more reason to stick with Canon.

actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency

bad..  paid?

actually no it's not hard at all..  it just means revisiting prices fairly frequently.  Canon et al could just say RRP is X-yen or equivelent in your currency.

This is exactly what's happening on the grey market, and that functions.
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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2015, 05:47:33 PM »

RGF

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2015, 07:17:22 PM »
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more..    I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon..  one more reason to stick with Canon.

actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency

bad..  paid?

actually no it's not hard at all..  it just means revisiting prices fairly frequently.  Canon et al could just say RRP is X-yen or equivelent in your currency.

This is exactly what's happening on the grey market, and that functions.

sorry typo - bad should be had.

agree gray market functions to a point.  Except that home market support needs to be paid by someone  Either local buyers since they get the benefit (in which gray market items don't support local market support) or from the parent company.  But how should the parent company allocate $.  If by sales, gray market items cause a miss allocation.

In the end gray market sales in small quantity don't matter but in large quantity can cause problems.

best way be to allow buyers of gray market products to transfer warrant to their home market (either free or for a small fee).

rfdesigner

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2015, 06:48:09 AM »
And to think, Canon/Nikon etc could shut down the grey market overnight simply by introducing a flat price worldwide.

But they try and charge customers in "rich" countries substantially more..    I don't have lots of sympathy.. but I do have far more for time for Canon as they still provide support for grey market and parts, unlike Nikon..  one more reason to stick with Canon.

actually very hard since currency fluctuates unless everyone bad in a single currency

bad..  paid?

actually no it's not hard at all..  it just means revisiting prices fairly frequently.  Canon et al could just say RRP is X-yen or equivelent in your currency.

This is exactly what's happening on the grey market, and that functions.

sorry typo - bad should be had.

agree gray market functions to a point.  Except that home market support needs to be paid by someone  Either local buyers since they get the benefit (in which gray market items don't support local market support) or from the parent company.  But how should the parent company allocate $.  If by sales, gray market items cause a miss allocation.

In the end gray market sales in small quantity don't matter but in large quantity can cause problems.

best way be to allow buyers of gray market products to transfer warrant to their home market (either free or for a small fee).

I don't mind accounting for the increased cost of operating a repairs service in the UK vs china etc. in the purchase price,  but if that's equal to 1/3rd the value of of a camera body pro rata then Canon are producing some pretty lousy stuff, and I just don't see that.  (that would equate to 50% of cameras being written off and having to be replaced due to total loss)

The cost of selling in country has fallen significantly since online selling really took off, online reviews often tell us more than we can ascertain from even half an hour in a shop, so the need to handle the product before purchase is so much less (how many here pre-order?), so the need to pay high levels of business rates and lots of employees is vastly reduced as much of the business has been reduced to box shifting.

Yes prices in the west do need to be slightly higher to account for the increased cost of doing business here, but a 50% markup is just way too much, and that is the gaping canyon that the grey market sellers occupy.

i.e.

"official canon supplier"
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/95327/Show.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA&utm_term=EOS%205DS%20Digital%20SLR%20Body&gclid=CK-Q29_ry8gCFQgXwwodkMMMpg

"grey market"
http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/canon-eos-5ds-digital-slr-body-3374-p.asp
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zim

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2015, 03:34:55 AM »

Yes prices in the west do need to be slightly higher to account for the increased cost of doing business here, but a 50% markup is just way too much, and that is the gaping canyon that the grey market sellers occupy.

i.e.

"official canon supplier"
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/95327/Show.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA&utm_term=EOS%205DS%20Digital%20SLR%20Body&gclid=CK-Q29_ry8gCFQgXwwodkMMMpg

"grey market"
http://www.hdewcameras.co.uk/canon-eos-5ds-digital-slr-body-3374-p.asp

This is absolutely true ( and I'll hold my hands up here and say am an HDEW fanboy, I've had great service from them, easily as good as official outlets ) but it's worth pointing out they operate with reduced choice and the difference in price after rebates which seem to be almost constant now can narrow the gap significantly on grey suppliers. As an example I got a 24 pancake a while back from Jessops which after rebate was exactly the same price as from DRev, small item, small price but still, every pound's a prisoner!

martti

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2015, 03:13:56 AM »
Just a stupid 'Babe Pig' -type question: These grey market cameras are made by Canon or Nikon or whatever. How do the get to the 'grey' market? Are they stolen goods? Or refurbished warranty returns? If not, what is the story, Did Canon not guess what the guy who bought 100 5Ds bodies might do with them? If they are not OK with having grey market products around, why do they supply their middlemen?

The short answer might be 'money'.
Their right hand is all for customer service and warranty and everything with a big network of sales- and repairpeople and their administration. For this network they sell their products at a given price and tha Manufacturer's Resell Price allows for a little overhead so that the organisation is maintained and the shareholders get their percentage.

They want to sell more...the best way to sell more is to make a nice discount.
So you cut the customer service network out and with your left hand you sell directly to your overseas customers.
Here, the price does not include the repair and the salespersonnel so no repairs, sorry, sir.

This situation offers a business opportunity to 'liberal' repair shops who can be good or bad but that's your headache. Another solution is to have all the repairs mailed in and either supply the customer with a brand new item or fix the broken one, whichever is cheaper.  I imagine having a professional spending three hours on a repair would amount to 1000± 15% dollars which would make the new item cheaper than the repair.

The market will change, that's for sure.

My own experience with the Tamron 24-70 lens thus far is that it ceased to autofocus. Tamron Europe in Germany, local Tamron in Mauritius and South Africa and Tamron Global, nobody wanted to have anything to do with the item that was bought from the 42nd Street Camera in NY.  So now I sent it to New York. The guy said that they will take a look at it and probably send me another item if the repair is complicated.
They'd charge me a 'warranty' of about 400 dollars. Plus freight.

Which brings the price of the lens to the same as it would have been 'legally'.
Whatever, there is no repair service here on this island, everything has to be sent out. Deal with it.

BUT and this is a big BUT: A Canon lens would have survived the little knock that rendered the Tamron useless.
You get what you pay for. Unless, of course, you steal or rob without getting caught.
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Maximilian

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2015, 04:42:15 AM »
Just a stupid 'Babe Pig' -type question: These grey market cameras are made by Canon or Nikon or whatever.
Not stupid and therefore entitled:
Those products normally are OEM products, legally produced and distributed by the namend companies.
But...
They are distributed for different countries/markets with different prices for the middlemen and the retailers. The reason therefore is to milk the regional markets most effective and to handle different
consumer rights laws and warranty regulations in different ways and therefore fund different service structures ind different ways.

Quote
How do the get to the 'grey' market? Are they stolen goods? Or refurbished warranty returns?
"No!"  to all questions.
Quote
If not, what is the story
The story is that in some markets where the prices are lower the goods are purchased, transferred to countries where the normal price is higer and then sold for a lower price than normal in these local markets.
They become "grey" because they are sold in markets the OEMs didn't plan them to.

==> So a fine product, almost 100% identical to your non-grey-market product, but cheaper. And maybe with a manual in Chinese and the wrong battery charger (often replaced by OEM or counterfeit).

Except for counterfeit parts the only problem for you as a customer might be that if you have warranty or repair issue the local service center refuses to handle your product (or could do so).

You can now whine or shout about this kind of distribution strategy, but I don't believe it to change that fast.
Only way would be that countries built up trade agreements like the EU so there is a common market.

Further "stupid" ;) questions?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 05:13:32 AM by Maximilian »
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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2015, 05:40:14 AM »
12 Months warranty only means it's worth the risk of buying on the grey market.

If you're in EU - and you're not a "professional" customer -  you have a mandatory 24 months warranty.

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2015, 05:40:14 AM »

Maximilian

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2015, 06:48:58 AM »
12 Months warranty only means it's worth the risk of buying on the grey market.

If you're in EU - and you're not a "professional" customer -  you have a mandatory 24 months warranty.
And in addition if you have a service case after warranty time and are willing to pay for repair, the local service center could tell you to send the item to the repair center of the country where it had to be located - depending on the local regulations of the service center. I've heard about such cases, but not concerning photo equipment.

And that makes the whole thing a little bit more complicated for the customer.

Disclaimer, again: You can now whine or shout about this kind of distribution strategy, but I don't believe it to change that fast.
sometimes you have to close your eyes to see properly.

martti

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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2015, 11:37:04 AM »
Like I said, official Tamron dealers did not want to hear about the lens that was bought from the U.S.
Once upon a time I had a grey market Olympus Tough that leaked. Olympus International sent me a newer version of the camera...which also leaked but only after I had sold it. I have repaired my grey market Canon things –outside warranty, crashes and salt water– in Sweden and in Finland and nobody ever asked any questions.

It is obvious that whichever way you get your gear, you have to pay the price sooner or later.
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Re: Canon's Definition of Gray Market
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2015, 11:37:04 AM »