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Author Topic: Had a chat with a Sony rep  (Read 20486 times)

emko

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2015, 07:07:16 PM »
So, Sony is looking into uncompressed RAW and might implement that at some unspecified future time.  This is what people want?  Likely results: huge files, slower frame rates, effectively shallower buffer.

Many of us here know the issue isn't compression, it's lossy compression.  But from the interviews, it seems that Sony is getting a garbled version of the message, with frequent references to uncompressed RAW.  Moral: be careful what you ask for...

Yea i have no idea why anyone would be asking for uncompressed RAW when compression saves you transfer speed and space. What they really want is a loss less compression, i am sure Sony firmware guys understand what they are asking but it would be funny if a firmware came out with uncompressed RAW files with huge performance penalties.

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2015, 07:07:16 PM »

Mr1Dx

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2015, 07:09:19 PM »
So, Sony is looking into uncompressed RAW and might implement that at some unspecified future time.  This is what people want?  Likely results: huge files, slower frame rates, effectively shallower buffer.

Many of us here know the issue isn't compression, it's lossy compression.  But from the interviews, it seems that Sony is getting a garbled version of the message, with frequent references to uncompressed RAW.  Moral: be careful what you ask for...
How would "Sony lossy compression" impacts your image quality?






emko

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2015, 07:13:09 PM »
So, Sony is looking into uncompressed RAW and might implement that at some unspecified future time.  This is what people want?  Likely results: huge files, slower frame rates, effectively shallower buffer.

Many of us here know the issue isn't compression, it's lossy compression.  But from the interviews, it seems that Sony is getting a garbled version of the message, with frequent references to uncompressed RAW.  Moral: be careful what you ask for...

How would "Sony lossy compression" impacts your image quality?

Because Lossy means its getting rid of information to make the compressed file smaller. It already results it some situations bad image quality like astrophotography. Please don't  defend Sony its a extremely stupid decision to have lossy compression on what is supposed  to be RAW files.

Mr1Dx

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2015, 07:18:14 PM »
So, Sony is looking into uncompressed RAW and might implement that at some unspecified future time.  This is what people want?  Likely results: huge files, slower frame rates, effectively shallower buffer.

Many of us here know the issue isn't compression, it's lossy compression.  But from the interviews, it seems that Sony is getting a garbled version of the message, with frequent references to uncompressed RAW.  Moral: be careful what you ask for...

How would "Sony lossy compression" impacts your image quality?

Because Lossy means its getting rid of information to make the compressed file smaller. It already results it some situations bad image quality like astrophotography. Please don't  defend Sony its a extremely stupid decision to have lossy compression on what is supposed  to be RAW files.

Any photos to prove between the two? I have few hundreds to share if you interested.

Learn to use proper software might not be a bad for certain individuals.

I have a plane to catch.... 8)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 07:21:15 PM by Mr1Dx »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2015, 07:28:30 PM »
Any photos to prove between the two?

Just shoot jpg, that's a lossy compressed format, too. 
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Don Haines

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2015, 07:35:18 PM »
If you want the ultimate in image quality, you want lossless RAW files. Compressing them with a lossless algorithm takes time.... but it also takes time to write the larger uncompressed files to your card... Odds are that compressing and writing the smaller files is faster than writing the larger uncompressed files....

Lossless compression is easy to do..... it's easier than a customized lossy raw compression....

If you are ok with files that have loss of information, save them as jpgs.....
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yorgasor

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 08:51:02 PM »
So, Sony is looking into uncompressed RAW and might implement that at some unspecified future time.  This is what people want?  Likely results: huge files, slower frame rates, effectively shallower buffer.

Many of us here know the issue isn't compression, it's lossy compression.  But from the interviews, it seems that Sony is getting a garbled version of the message, with frequent references to uncompressed RAW.  Moral: be careful what you ask for...

Yea i have no idea why anyone would be asking for uncompressed RAW when compression saves you transfer speed and space. What they really want is a loss less compression, i am sure Sony firmware guys understand what they are asking but it would be funny if a firmware came out with uncompressed RAW files with huge performance penalties.

There's a very good chance these sales & exec types don't know the difference between uncompressed RAW, lossless compressed RAW & lossy compressed RAW.  If English is a second language for them, it will be even harder to speak with precision.  I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that if they implement the feature that they'd at least do it right, although the fact that they've implemented lossy RAW files to begin with does leave one room for skepticism.

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 08:51:02 PM »

emko

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 10:50:46 PM »
So, Sony is looking into uncompressed RAW and might implement that at some unspecified future time.  This is what people want?  Likely results: huge files, slower frame rates, effectively shallower buffer.

Many of us here know the issue isn't compression, it's lossy compression.  But from the interviews, it seems that Sony is getting a garbled version of the message, with frequent references to uncompressed RAW.  Moral: be careful what you ask for...


Yea i have no idea why anyone would be asking for uncompressed RAW when compression saves you transfer speed and space. What they really want is a loss less compression, i am sure Sony firmware guys understand what they are asking but it would be funny if a firmware came out with uncompressed RAW files with huge performance penalties.

There's a very good chance these sales & exec types don't know the difference between uncompressed RAW, lossless compressed RAW & lossy compressed RAW.  If English is a second language for them, it will be even harder to speak with precision.  I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that if they implement the feature that they'd at least do it right, although the fact that they've implemented lossy RAW files to begin with does leave one room for skepticism.

yea its a very dumb move since people want to use RAW for specific reason in the first place not a lossy compression like JPEG, i would of thought it a good idea if they had lossy and lossless RAW for the people who want to save the few megabytes and think its not that big of a deal or dont notice the loss.

dswtan

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 11:57:54 PM »
Any photos to prove between the two?
Not mine, but this photo is pretty clear on compressed RAW issues for one scenario that I care about, astro:
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2014/20140214_1-SonyA7-artifacts-star-trails.html

I could believe this isn't an issue in general photography without such extreme contrast situations.
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Aglet

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2015, 02:43:44 AM »
Any photos to prove between the two?
Not mine, but this photo is pretty clear on compressed RAW issues for one scenario that I care about, astro:
http://diglloyd.com/blog/2014/20140214_1-SonyA7-artifacts-star-trails.html

I could believe this isn't an issue in general photography without such extreme contrast situations.

I'll try remember to test this next time I've got a Nikon out at night; FWIW I've never had any issues with lossless or lossy compressed Nikon raw but haven't done star trails to see how that pixel-level high contrast stuff's handled.

pwp

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2015, 04:27:56 AM »
I'm not au fait with the science, but if Sony uses a genuinely innovative and clever compression, then why not?
It's a useful payday with storage & buffer depth.

(slightly OT) The Panasonic GH4 applies some sort of innovative & clever compression to the 4K output. I'm not too concerned about the science, but the results speak for themselves. By way of comparison, one minute of GH4 4K video demands almost exactly the same amount of storage as one minute of 5D MkIII video at full res. I'll take the cleverly compressed GH4 4K output any day. Plus I love that it records 4K internally, unlike Sony.

Vive le innovative compression! (but only if it's sufficiently clever...)

-pw

emko

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2015, 06:14:18 AM »
I'm not au fait with the science, but if Sony uses a genuinely innovative and clever compression, then why not?
It's a useful payday with storage & buffer depth.

(slightly OT) The Panasonic GH4 applies some sort of innovative & clever compression to the 4K output. I'm not too concerned about the science, but the results speak for themselves. By way of comparison, one minute of GH4 4K video demands almost exactly the same amount of storage as one minute of 5D MkIII video at full res. I'll take the cleverly compressed GH4 4K output any day. Plus I love that it records 4K internally, unlike Sony.

Vive le innovative compression! (but only if it's sufficiently clever...)
-pw

you are kidding right? 4K footage the same bitrate as 5D3 1080p footage? how on earth can you say you don't notice anything? that must be very horrible looking footage.

Then i googled it 5D3 IBP 30Mbps vs G4H 4K IBP 100Mbps
5d3 ALL-I 90Mbps vs G4H 200Mbps modes: All-I

Nope not even close YUP very clever/

I don't care how clever the compression is when i choose RAW it should be RAW sensor data without any information being lost because of some idiot at SONY saying the lossy compression is the only option. This is why we don't use JPEG as its lossy compression.

RGF

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2015, 07:59:09 AM »
Its interesting that they can build a high tech sensor, but don't know how to use a lossless compression, and have to investigate for what has been 3 years or so already.

Yeah, but their method of lossy compression is innovative.

Can you explain?  How much loss is there with their method?

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2015, 07:59:09 AM »

RGF

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2015, 08:02:49 AM »
Its interesting that they can build a high tech sensor, but don't know how to use a lossless compression, and have to investigate for what has been 3 years or so already.

Yeah, but their method of lossy compression is innovative.

Don't know how old you are John, but remember ATRAC ?
I can remember using MiniDiscs with ATRAC in good HiFi (won't call it HighEnd).
And it really sucked. A lot of room information loss, etc. compared to the original (CD) recording.
For mobile it was okay. But not for home HiFi. (At least for me)

Didn't sony create betamax and lost the battle to VHS.  Better mousetrap but not accepted by the market place.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2015, 10:04:23 AM »
Its interesting that they can build a high tech sensor, but don't know how to use a lossless compression, and have to investigate for what has been 3 years or so already.

Yeah, but their method of lossy compression is innovative.

Can you explain?  How much loss is there with their method?

I was being facetious, but details are here:

http://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/sony-craw-arw2-posterization-detection
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Re: Had a chat with a Sony rep
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2015, 10:04:23 AM »