Clarify some Canon 5d M2 in-camera processing questions

[brando72]

I recently bought a Canon 5d M2 and have been playing with it for a couple months slowly learning how all the settings work. I shoot Raw+JPG as a way to compare my photos when I'm in the PP part of my workflow using LR V3.x.

I have a few questions that are still lingering and would love some advice or suggestions if possible:

1. Is it correct that the preview on the LCD is of the JPG and all the associated Canon in-camera processing settings that are set by me or Canon defaults?

2. If you shoot RAW only, is the JPG preview the same as the JPG preview with RAW+JPG?

3. If one wants to reply on PP software such as LR, what settings in camera should be enabled, disabled, etc? I realize that they can all be changed in PP but what is the best way to view the preview and see it based on the exposure you just shot it at?

4. Is it ever ok to rely on the in-camera processing for important work like portrait shots, landscapes, etc? I'm excluding situations like sports or possibly weddings where possibly thousands of shots are taken.

Thanks.

[neuroanatomist]

1. Is it correct that the preview on the LCD is of the JPG and all the associated Canon in-camera processing settings that are set by me or Canon defaults?

The review image on the LCD uses the JPG image created based on the settings (Picture Style, ALO, etc.) that you have chosen.

2. If you shoot RAW only, is the JPG preview the same as the JPG preview with RAW+JPG?

Yes, it's still using the same JPG preview.  There is actually a preview JPG image embedded in the RAW file, even when shooting RAW only.  It's worth noting that the histogram you see on the image review is also generated from the JPG preview image, so if you make exposure changes based on that histogram, your in-camera settings can actually indirectly affect even your RAW images.

3. If one wants to reply on PP software such as LR, what settings in camera should be enabled, disabled, etc? I realize that they can all be changed in PP but what is the best way to view the preview and see it based on the exposure you just shot it at?

If you're using 3rd party software (i.e. not DPP), it doesn't matter what settings you choose - LR, Aperture, DxO, etc., none of them recognize any of the Canon-specific metadata tags (with some exceptions, such as AF point, etc.).  But, none of the image affecting settings (Picture Style, ALO, peripheral illumination correction, etc.).  One notable exception is highlight tone priority, which is actually baked into the RAW data. 

Different PP programs (ACR/LR, Aperture, DxO, etc.) have different default settings.  I suppose you could shoot a color test pattern of some sort (e.g. an X-rite Color Checker Passport, Gretag-Macbeth color chart, printout from the web, etc.), process that using the defaults for your PP program, then use Canon's Picture Style Editor to create a picture style that most closely approximates the default output from your chosen RAW converter.

4. Is it ever ok to rely on the in-camera processing for important work like portrait shots, landscapes, etc? I'm excluding situations like sports or possibly weddings where possibly thousands of shots are taken.

Sure, depending on your expectations and those of your clients, if applicable.  If your picture is well-exposed, has the right color temperature setting, and is otherwise pretty much how you want it, then processing a RAW image may be spending time you don't need to spend.  But...unless you can be sure you're absolutely going to get it right in camera, or can go back and reshoot if you don't, RAW gives you much more flexibility to correct problems.

[JR]

But...unless you can be sure you're absolutely going to get it right in camera, or can go back and reshoot if you don't, RAW gives you much more flexibility to correct problems.

Could not have said it better on the question answers!  I really do encourage you brando 72 to shoot in RAW as opposed to JPG.  Once I got use to it, I never shot a JPG again myself!

For portraits and landscape I would not personally rely on the in-camera setting for any processing.  I would just shoot RAW and process with LR3 after.  Personal preference I guess...

[brando72]

3. If one wants to reply on PP software such as LR, what settings in camera should be enabled, disabled, etc? I realize that they can all be changed in PP but what is the best way to view the preview and see it based on the exposure you just shot it at?

If you're using 3rd party software (i.e. not DPP), it doesn't matter what settings you choose - LR, Aperture, DxO, etc., none of them recognize any of the Canon-specific metadata tags (with some exceptions, such as AF point, etc.).  But, none of the image affecting settings (Picture Style, ALO, peripheral illumination correction, etc.).  One notable exception is highlight tone priority, which is actually baked into the RAW data. 

Thanks Neuro for your quick ,prompt, and informative  responses to my questions. Also, thanks JR and I will continue to shoot raw and increase my PP skills. So Neuro, let me just confirm one point you already noted. If I shoot RAW, once imported into a PP program such as LR, none of the in-camera Canon settings are applied such as picture styles ( or custom style), ISO expansion, etc? The jpg preview that I do see is based on the settings though. Should I then make the in-camera settings as neutral as possible to see the JPG as close to a RAW file will look once imported? Another words, should I leave the in-camera settings on default or tweak them to make the JPG preview view as a neutral as possible?

Different PP programs (ACR/LR, Aperture, DxO, etc.) have different default settings.  I suppose you could shoot a color test pattern of some sort (e.g. an X-rite Color Checker Passport, Gretag-Macbeth color chart, printout from the web, etc.), process that using the defaults for your PP program, then use Canon's Picture Style Editor to create a picture style that most closely approximates the default output from your chosen RAW converter.

[Kernuak]

I think if you shoot in RAW and set the white balance, Lightroom does remember the setting. For example, if I set the white balance to cloudy in camera and change from "As shot" to LR's cloudy setting, there is a visible (if slight) difference. I can't say I've paid much attention to the actual temperature, as I tend to adjust to how I think it should look if the chosen setting doesn't look quite right. I tend to only pay attention to the actual temperature, when I already have a preconceived idea about what it should be (for example when I photograph an illuminated carnival and use flash as well or for aurora).

[neuroanatomist]

Thanks Neuro for your quick ,prompt, and informative  responses to my questions. Also, thanks JR and I will continue to shoot raw and increase my PP skills. So Neuro, let me just confirm one point you already noted. If I shoot RAW, once imported into a PP program such as LR, none of the in-camera Canon settings are applied such as picture styles ( or custom style), ISO expansion, etc? The jpg preview that I do see is based on the settings though. Should I then make the in-camera settings as neutral as possible to see the JPG as close to a RAW file will look once imported? Another words, should I leave the in-camera settings on default or tweak them to make the JPG preview view as a neutral as possible?.

Mostly correct. Very few settings will be recognized outside of DPP.  That includes picture style (including custom), ALO, PIC, etc.  Some settings are recognized, including ISO (native or expanded) and white balance (even custom WB) - those are 'open' in the metadata, but things like picture style and ALO are Canon algorithms used by the in-camera Digic and by DPP, but Canon doesn't share them with 3rd parties.   A few settings aren't metadata but rather alter the RAW data (HTP and long-exposure NR) so those are baked into the RAW image data no matter what you use for PP.

I do think it's a good idea to use in-camera settings that are pretty neutral (Neutral picture style, ALO and PIC off, etc.), so your histogram is based on something closer to what the RAW file will look like.  There are actually tricks (green-weighted custom WB) to get the histogram even more RAW relevant, but I don't bother (plus if you ever want to show someone the review image, it would look pretty odd).

[neuroanatomist]

RE: white balance is accessible with As Shot in 3rd party programs.  Mostly, the Kelvin values for specific settings (cloudy, tungsten, etc.) are the same across all programs. One exception is Flash WB in DPP - if you're using a Canon Speedlite, it passes specific color temp information to the camera, and that's recorded in metadata.  If you set WB to As Shot or Flash in DPP, the temp from the Speedlite is used; in 3rd party apps, it's used with As Shot, but if you set it to Flash you'll just get the standard 6000 K.

[neuroanatomist]

A few settings aren't metadata but rather alter the RAW data (HTP and long-exposure NR) so those are baked into the RAW image data no matter what you use for PP.

Thought I should clarify the above.  While long exposure NR is truly baked into the RAW image data (a dark frame is shot after the exposure, subtracted from the exposure, and the result is written as the RAW image), HTP is a little different.  It's not so much that HTP affects the RAW data per se, but it does affect the RAW metadata in a way that's not handled properly by anything but DPP.

What HTP does is deliberately underexpose by one stop, and 'misrecord' the ISO in the metadata - that's why ISO 100 isn't available when you turn on HTP, i.e. you set ISO 200, it shoots at ISO 100 but records 200, or you set ISO 800, it shoots at 400 and records 800. If shooting JPG, it processes the underexposed image to brighten everything except the highlights (meaning it applies a tone curve).  If shooting RAW, it sets a metadata flag so DPP can apply that tone curve. 

If you open that RAW file in a 3rd party converter, results vary. Some ignore the flag and you just get an underexposed image.  Others compensate by just boosting the total exposure by one stop - I think ACR (LR/CS) does that.  Of course, that just re-blows your highlights and adds shadow noise. AFAIK, no 3rd party converter tries to replicate the tone curve to preserve highlights. 

So, if you shoot RAW and use a converter other than DPP,  I'd leave HTP off so your reported ISO reflects the actual ISO used to take the shot, and just expose properly to preserve highlights.  You can apply your own tone curve, not limited to the one full stop forced by HTP.

[Meh]

Awesome posts Neuro...

I agree with you about the green-weighted WB tricks.  It helps eke out the last little benefit of ETTR but I too prefer to see something reasonable looking on the LCD and like the option to show someone a shot if needed.