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Author Topic: *UPDATE 3* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed  (Read 37663 times)

stark-arts

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 11:15:57 AM »
Canon Rumors guy got this wrong - it's been floated that this would be bigger than m43 for a while...this camera is designed to attack the fuji's and the sensor size is correct...not the correct CR guy one but the one posted...

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 11:15:57 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 11:35:51 AM »
Canon Rumors guy got this wrong - it's been floated that this would be bigger than m43 for a while...this camera is designed to attack the fuji's and the sensor size is correct...not the correct CR guy one but the one posted...

Might I ask how you know this with any certainty? 

What does that mean in terms of the lens?  The quoted spec is 'f/2.5-16' and if that's as correctly quoted as the 1.5" sensor, then based on how apertures are printed on the lens, it means f/2.5 max aperture at the wide end and f/16 max aperture at the long end.  I really doubt they'd release a camera that only opens to f/16 at the long end, so I believe that that spec is indicating the total aperture range (i.e. f/2.5 max aperture at the wide end, some unknown max aperture at the long end, and a minimum aperture of f/16 throughout the range - that improves on the G12 which is f/2.8 max and f/8 min).

So, if the Wells Fargo analyst isn't relating the information on the aperture in the standard/conventional way, what makes it certain that the sensor is being specified properly? 

Bigger than m4/3?  Ok, conservatively slot it between that and the Canon APS-C and give it a 1.9x crop factor.  That means a 28-112mm FF-equivalent lens is really a 15-59mm lens, with f/2.5 at the wide end.  That means it's got to be substantially bigger than the m4/3 kit lenses, the smallest of which (Oly 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6) is 2.5" long when retracted.  The PowerShot G12 is 1.9" deep - do you think Canon will release a G1X that's well over 3" deep, probably closer to 4" deep?  If it has a sensor bigger than m4/3, it would have to be...
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NotABunny

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 11:36:47 AM »
The reason why the sensor can't be 1.5" is the lens, not the price. The lens must cover the entire sensor (otherwise it's pointless to have a big sensor). Remember how big the 24-105 lens is? And that's an F4 even at 24mm.

marinien

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 11:48:54 AM »
The reason why the sensor can't be 1.5" is the lens, not the price. The lens must cover the entire sensor (otherwise it's pointless to have a big sensor). Remember how big the 24-105 lens is? And that's an F4 even at 24mm.

I do not think that comparing lenses designed for (D)SLR and lenses designed for "mirrorless" system is appropriate (see "Lens Genealogy" by Roger Cicala). And I believe that that's why Neuro used the Olympus m43 kit lens for his example. Otherwise he would have used the 17-55 f/2.8 lens (shorter focal range, smaller apurture) instead.
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polpaulin

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Re: *UPDATE 2* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 12:24:56 PM »
for that price you get  a Sony Nex 5n   with aps-c sensor

moreorless

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2012, 12:54:59 PM »
8) I think we need to wait for something official. If it is 1/1,5, that would make it the same size as the Fuji x10 but still smaller than the Nikon V1. If it is 1.5", that that would make it quite a large sensor and something to celebrate, even without interchangeable lenses.

One thing I haven't noticed mentioned: does it have IS??

The G1X is going to be in much more direct competision with the X10 than it is the V1 though, similar product in a similar price range. Given that manifacturers have always shown alot of inertia in terms of sensor size with fixed lens digital it seems to make sense Canon is looking to equal the X10 then potentially depend on the brand name and superior funcationality to sell it.

unfocused

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Re: *UPDATE 2* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2012, 01:27:56 PM »
I agree, this is a competitor to the Fuji X10. I believe others have indicated that Canon considers Fuji to be the only competitor they are really concerned about. And, there is probably good reason for that.

Canon and Nikon have been competing for decades and know each other inside out. Canon (right or wrong) doesn't seem overly concerned about interchangeable lens mirror-less cameras. But, Fuji successfully negotiated the transition from film to digital (while Kodak didn't) and they now how a couple of extraordinarily popular retro-rangefinders that tap into the lucrative enthusiast market. (Not to mention new organic sensor technology that could be a complete game-changer if their claims are close to true)

Looking forward, Canon may see the point-and-shoot market being killed off by camera phones; feel that interchangeable lens mirror-less cameras are just an passing fancy and that the future lies with cameras focused on enthusiasts with discretionary dollars.

I'm not saying they are correct, I'm just speculating.

Bottom line though, in this case, I think it's pretty obvious that the G1X is focused right at Fuji. (In which case, I'm anxious to learn more in order to see what justifies the price premium over the X10)
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Re: *UPDATE 2* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2012, 01:27:56 PM »

hmmm

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1/1.5 = 2/3 -- vs. 1/1.7
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2012, 01:31:07 PM »
If we are talking 1/1.5", that is the same as 2/3".  The sensor surface area would be over 30% bigger than the 1/1.7.   

That is a nice bump up, but when compared to the N1 or the Sony NEX intro models at very roughly the same price it is less than impressive.   What could have made it more competitive is to start at 24mm wide, but that evidently is not the case.

I hope stavreski is on the right track, and we are talking about a sensor of roughly APS-C dimensions.

Or it could be the rumor is just bogus.    Ah well, we'll see...

source for sensor numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format

roger

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2012, 01:55:58 PM »
Is this a CR3 rumor?

Same question. If it's real, then maybe I'll have to rethink my shopping plan.

kapanak

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Odd ... Why not just go APS-C, Canon?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2012, 02:21:07 PM »
If this rumoured camera really does have a 1.5″ sensor, then it would be roughly 24mm diagonally. If we assume the aspect ratio is 3:2, as is with large Canon sensors, then that would put this at 20.0 mm x 13.3mm … which is an odd size, given the fact that the Canon APS-C is 26.70mm diagonally, and its dimensions are 22.20mm x 14.80mm … Why not just use your own APS-C Canon …

swblackwood

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2012, 02:34:38 PM »



8) I think we need to wait for something official. If it is 1/1,5, that would make it the same size as the Fuji x10 but still smaller than the Nikon V1. If it is 1.5", that that would make it quite a large sensor and something to celebrate, even without interchangeable lenses.

One thing I haven't noticed mentioned: does it have IS??

The G1X is going to be in much more direct competision with the X10 than it is the V1 though, similar product in a similar price range. Given that manifacturers have always shown alot of inertia in terms of sensor size with fixed lens digital it seems to make sense Canon is looking to equal the X10 then potentially depend on the brand name and superior funcationality to sell it.

$200 price difference isn't much in terms of competitiveness. But you could well be right. I hope not.

KyleSTL

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2012, 03:36:37 PM »
What does that mean in terms of the lens?  The quoted spec is 'f/2.5-16' and if that's as correctly quoted as the 1.5" sensor, then based on how apertures are printed on the lens, it means f/2.5 max aperture at the wide end and f/16 max aperture at the long end.  I really doubt they'd release a camera that only opens to f/16 at the long end, so I believe that that spec is indicating the total aperture range (i.e. f/2.5 max aperture at the wide end, some unknown max aperture at the long end, and a minimum aperture of f/16 throughout the range - that improves on the G12 which is f/2.8 max and f/8 min).

So, if the Wells Fargo analyst isn't relating the information on the aperture in the standard/conventional way, what makes it certain that the sensor is being specified properly? 

Bigger than m4/3?  Ok, conservatively slot it between that and the Canon APS-C and give it a 1.9x crop factor.  That means a 28-112mm FF-equivalent lens is really a 15-59mm lens, with f/2.5 at the wide end.  That means it's got to be substantially bigger than the m4/3 kit lenses, the smallest of which (Oly 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6) is 2.5" long when retracted.  The PowerShot G12 is 1.9" deep - do you think Canon will release a G1X that's well over 3" deep, probably closer to 4" deep?  If it has a sensor bigger than m4/3, it would have to be...

I completely understand what you're saying neuro, but I'd like to add this for arguments sake:

Canon 510HS:
1/2.3" sensor
28-336mm equivalent (5.0-60mm f/3.4-5.9)
12x
dimensions: 99 x 59 x 22 mm (3.9 x 2.3 x 0.9 in)


equivalent older camera

Canon SX200 IS: (2009)
1/2.3" sensor
28-336mm equivalent (5.0-60mm f/3.4-5.3) slightly faster on the long end
12x
dimensions: 103 x 61 x 38 mm (4.1 x 2.4 x 1.5 in)


even older camera

Canon S3 IS: (2006)
1/2.5" sensor smaller sensor
36-432mm equivalent (6.0-72mm f/2.7-3.5) a little longer, and faster (1 full stop) throughout the range
12x
dimensions: 113 x 78 x 76 mm (4.5 x 3.1 x 3 in)


I know the physics of lens design has not changed, but they have managed to cram larger range zooms into smaller cameras.

and the Pro 1 that was mentioned earlier in this thread:
2/3" sensor
28-200mm equivalent  (7.2-50.8mm f/2.4-3.5) slightly faster than S3, much faster than SX200 and 510HS
7x shorter zoom range
dimensions: 118 x 72 x 90 mm (4.6 x 2.8 x 3.5 in)


Neuro, I completely agree with you, though, that this is definitely NOT a constant aperture zoom lens.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: *UPDATE 2* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2012, 04:07:28 PM »
I know the physics of lens design has not changed, but they have managed to cram larger range zooms into smaller cameras.

That's entirely consistent.  Which are the two deepest cameras you list?  The S3 IS and the Pro1, both 3" or deeper.  The one with the smaller sensor has a longer tele end, the one with the bigger sensor has the shorter tele end.  Granted, this may be a total redesign of the G series, but all of the recent G's have been less than 2" thick.  The 1/1.5" (2/3") is the same size as the Pro1's sensor, but the reduced focal range, non-L optics (presumably; the Pro1 had UD and fluorite elements), and the trend toward smaller lenses supporting the same zoom range will allow it to be in the 2" depth range, rather than over 3".
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Re: *UPDATE 2* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2012, 04:07:28 PM »

gmrza

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2012, 04:11:46 PM »

Bigger than m4/3?  Ok, conservatively slot it between that and the Canon APS-C and give it a 1.9x crop factor.  That means a 28-112mm FF-equivalent lens is really a 15-59mm lens, with f/2.5 at the wide end.  That means it's got to be substantially bigger than the m4/3 kit lenses, the smallest of which (Oly 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6) is 2.5" long when retracted.  The PowerShot G12 is 1.9" deep - do you think Canon will release a G1X that's well over 3" deep, probably closer to 4" deep?  If it has a sensor bigger than m4/3, it would have to be...

This is the main consideration that makes me question the concept of a sensor that is bigger than m4/3 in a Powershot.  1/1.5" does sound more realistic.
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takeapic

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2012, 05:38:52 PM »
Agree.

Is it just me, but this is something Canon could of and should come out with years ago instead of all the pointless G series updates.

The problem now is the market keeps moving and we already have the G1X...it's the X10.  Same zoom and lens range. 

Now what looks more promising is the LX5 successor.

Sorry Canon, but the G1X, like most Canons lately, is too late to the market. 



Bigger than m4/3?  Ok, conservatively slot it between that and the Canon APS-C and give it a 1.9x crop factor.  That means a 28-112mm FF-equivalent lens is really a 15-59mm lens, with f/2.5 at the wide end.  That means it's got to be substantially bigger than the m4/3 kit lenses, the smallest of which (Oly 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6) is 2.5" long when retracted.  The PowerShot G12 is 1.9" deep - do you think Canon will release a G1X that's well over 3" deep, probably closer to 4" deep?  If it has a sensor bigger than m4/3, it would have to be...

This is the main consideration that makes me question the concept of a sensor that is bigger than m4/3 in a Powershot.  1/1.5" does sound more realistic.

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Re: *UPDATE* Canon PowerShot G1X Revealed
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2012, 05:38:52 PM »