July 31, 2014, 10:21:33 PM

Author Topic: 1D X "Limitations" Fixable?  (Read 16151 times)

liv_img

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2012, 12:21:15 PM »
I need my EOS-1D autofocus with f8 lenses. I used all my EOS-1 with the 500/4 +2X with good results. As a professional nature photographer sometimes I need this range for rare wildlife.

Also exposure compensation with Auto ISO. Fix a shutter and an aperture, and have the exposure compensation dial work.

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2012, 12:21:15 PM »

mackguyver

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2012, 12:29:16 PM »
Also exposure compensation with Auto ISO. Fix a shutter and an aperture, and have the exposure compensation dial work.
+1 on that - we've only been asking for that for how long???
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traveller

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2012, 12:35:56 PM »
Is anyone else a little bit suspicious about this? First Neuroanatomist speculates upon the subject:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2707.msg57623.html#msg57623

then NL gets fed a rumour that some of the 1D X's limitations are fixable in firmware (and the f/8 focusing issue is a big one for a lot of photographers, especially after the D4 announcement)...

Granted it could be a coincidence, or someone at Canon could actually be watching these sorts of fora for feedback (yeah, right!), but it's also possible that some malevolent individual is simply stirring it based upon what they've read here. 

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2012, 12:43:24 PM »
Granted it could be a coincidence, or someone at Canon could actually be watching these sorts of fora for feedback (yeah, right!), but it's also possible that some malevolent individual is simply stirring it based upon what they've read here.


oh please come on.... all the world is complaining about the F5.6 limitation... canon does not need to read in this forum.  ::)

they get that first hand from their pros.

zim

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2012, 01:13:58 PM »
liv_img - "Also exposure compensation with Auto ISO. Fix a shutter and an aperture, and have the exposure compensation dial work."

Viggo - "Aim the centerpoint at a grey area, lock with AF-ON button and, boom, whitebalance sampled. Instead of taking an actual picture , and then set and then turn to Custom WB, setting."

Couldn’t agree more with these two wishes. It’s interesting that they should even be mentioned in a discussion about the new ‘state of the art’ Canon flagship! such basics should be available on an 1100D i.e. they entire DSLR range. I‘m not sure how important the additional mode would be for pros but setting whitebalance easily/quickly is just basic.

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2012, 01:20:38 PM »
You can likely attempt autofocus with the pins taped, and it will probably work on some lens / TC combinations just like the non 1 series bodies.  They are slow to focus and often require a pre-focus and then loock-on, depending on the hardware.

I think its not available because it does not give fast and reliable AF at f/8, but will focus slowly most of the time with pins taped.  It would be nice to have a firmware option to set attempted AF at any aperture, even f/11.  I could sometimes AF my 1D MK III with pre-focus first at F/11 with pins taped.  This is not good for moving objects, but still scenes were fine.

dilbert

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 01:37:34 PM »
If they didn't consciously intend for f/8 AF to work when making the AF sensor, no amount of firmware tweaking is going to give it to you in a useful way.

If true, then it would be impossible for an f/5.6-limited AF sensor to focus with an f/8 lens, right?  Why, then, does the pin-taping trick allow AF with an f/5.6 lens and 1.4x TC?  For that matter, how does a 3rd party zoom lens that's f/6.3 at the long end manage to AF using f/5.6 AF points?

The fact that the above do work indicate the possibility of a firmware change to address the f/8 AF.  Now, a pin-taped f/8 AF is only partially effective, and fails sometimes. Canon included an f/8 line in the previous 1-series bodies for a reason, and they lock out the AF narrower than f/5.6 for a reason - likely because AF at f/8 with an f/5.6 sensor doesn't meet their standards. Still, they might be able to adjust the AF algorithms to deliver acceptable performance.

I'm not so sure ... there's comments somewhere that Canon changed the sub-mirror responsible for autofocus from being elliptical to flat. If that's actually the case, then it may be that there's less "concentration" of light with the new AF mechanism and thus less ability for AF to work with less light.

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2012, 01:37:34 PM »

rossbeckernz

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2012, 01:58:06 PM »
Setting the custom white balance without taking a photo is already a standard feature of the 1D series.  I use it all the time.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2012, 02:31:58 PM »
I have tried the "tape trick" before on assorted crop sensor bodies and lenses, but never had any AF performance with a f/8 system that I would say was usable. That's why my original comment suggested a difference between having any f/8 AF, and one that works well.

Of course, that's with an AF system programmed not to try to achieve AF narrower than f/5.6, rather than one which has been optimized to do so from a firmware standpoint.

Look carefully at Nikon's D4 AF specs.  With f/8, 11 points including 1 cross; between f/5.6 and f/8, 15 points including 9 crosses. Does that mean the center AF point is an f/8 cross? If so, the shorter baseline means Nikon traded away accuracy.  What about the 8 other crosses that don't work at f/8, but do at, say, f/7.1?  Are those f/7.1-sensitive sensors?  Without seeing a schematic of the sensor or more details from Nikon, we won't know for sure, but I suspect the answers are no and no. I think they'd not choose to sacrifice accuracy, but maybe the sensor is just more complex, and where Canon chose to squeeze more AF points and make more of them crosses, Nikon chose to squeeze in some f/8 and f/7.1 lines.

Still, I think it's possible that Nikon is using the same f/5.6 AF points, and just optimized the firmware to support narrower apertures. If so, it's possible for Canon to do the same (although there may be non-technical reasons that they won't).

I'm not so sure ... there's comments somewhere that Canon changed the sub-mirror responsible for autofocus from being elliptical to flat. If that's actually the case, then it may be that there's less "concentration" of light with the new AF mechanism and thus less ability for AF to work with less light.

I don't think that would matter at all.  The aperture limitation isn't really about the amount of light, but rather about the baseline of the sensors.  An f/5.6 lens won't activate f/2.8 sensors because the sensor lines are widely spaced, and the narrower aperture doesn't allow the light to be spread far enough. Consider - if it were the amount of light, AF would fail with a 3-stop ND filter on an f/5.6 lens, but instead it works fine, as long as the intensity exceeds the EV sensitivity of the sensor (-2 for the 1D X, -1 for previous 1-series, and -0.5 for other bodies).

Also, 'concentrating' the light implies the mirror was concave - I don't think that's what is meant by oblong. Rather, it was more oval rather than rectangular.  Going from oblong to rectangular for the 1D X makes perfect sense - look at the shape of the AF point arrays - oblong on the 1DIV and 1DsIII, rectangular on the 1D X.
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mememe

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2012, 02:52:09 PM »
This is a bit like: "I have a Pentium 3! Where can i download the firmware update to make it a i7?"

No seriously... You cant update hardware limitations via Firmware...

motorhead

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2012, 03:11:28 PM »
"Never had any AF performance that I would say was usable"

Thats a sad situation. I have regularly used my 30D at MotoGP events with my 100-400 & 1.4x in extremely bad weather (i well remember the pouring rain at Donnington) where I used f/8 with no problems at all obtaining good focus in AI Servo.

eaw213

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2012, 03:25:42 PM »
This is a bit like: "I have a Pentium 3! Where can i download the firmware update to make it a i7?"

No seriously... You cant update hardware limitations via Firmware...

I'm an engineer at Intel, and this made me chuckle a bit, although I don't say that in a way to put you down. I chuckled because what you said about Intel chips sounds so logically true. I mean, you can't just magically upgrade to a new chip by unlocking features on your old chip... right? And yet it just so happens to be what Intel attempted in the past.

There were plans to release chips that contained a myriad of power levels already packaged within them, and when you bought a chip of a certain power level, all that meant was that you bought the same chip as everyone else, but your chip was unlocked up to the power level you purchased. In the future, when you decided you wanted more power, you simply paid to have more power from the same chip unlocked. There was of course a lot of kickback from consumers on this policy of selling intentionally limited products, so you don't see it in effect today, but the idea has always been there.

Of course, that's not entirely the same as this. In one case, Intel has pre-engineered the power into the product and is intentionally concealing perfectly usable computing power until you purchase and activate it. On the other hand, Canon would be concealing performance levels that don't live up to their standards, which wouldn't have anything to do with trying to intentionally hold back technology or sell additional product... unless the TC sales angle is a valid one. Still, I thought it was an interesting story worth telling given your comment. :) Cheers.

mememe

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2012, 03:40:35 PM »
There were plans to release chips that contained a myriad of power levels already packaged within them, and when you bought a chip of a certain power level, all that meant was that you bought the same chip as everyone else, but your chip was unlocked up to the power level you purchased. In the future, when you decided you wanted more power, you simply paid to have more power from the same chip unlocked. There was of course a lot of kickback from consumers on this policy of selling intentionally limited products, so you don't see it in effect today, but the idea has always been there.

Oh yes, i remember... This was about the time i lost interest in PC-Hardware... Didnt knew that they dont really came out with that plan. My knowledge stopps at the core series...

The abilties of the AF-Sensor have to do with size and placment (distance) of the phase-detection-sensors itself. So i dont think they built it for f8 and cut it out with firmware. I mean... possible at a 300D but not in a 1-Series Camera...

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2012, 03:40:35 PM »

dilbert

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2012, 03:52:03 PM »
There were plans to release chips that contained a myriad of power levels already packaged within them, and when you bought a chip of a certain power level, all that meant was that you bought the same chip as everyone else, but your chip was unlocked up to the power level you purchased. In the future, when you decided you wanted more power, you simply paid to have more power from the same chip unlocked. There was of course a lot of kickback from consumers on this policy of selling intentionally limited products, so you don't see it in effect today, but the idea has always been there.

Oh yes, i remember... This was about the time i lost interest in PC-Hardware... Didnt knew that they dont really came out with that plan. My knowledge stopps at the core series...

The abilties of the AF-Sensor have to do with size and placment (distance) of the phase-detection-sensors itself. So i dont think they built it for f8 and cut it out with firmware. I mean... possible at a 300D but not in a 1-Series Camera...

Yup, agreed.

Whilst they may be able to "tweak" the firmware to allow AF with f/8, you can bet that it will be vastly inferior to the native AF with f/8 on all prior 1-series cameras. "Fixing" their firmware may allow them to scrape enough egg of their face to work on fixing this for the next model, that'll be due out ASAP.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2012, 04:08:00 PM »
This is a bit like: "I have a Pentium 3! Where can i download the firmware update to make it a i7?"

No seriously... You cant update hardware limitations via Firmware...

No one is suggesting that (at least, I'm not).  Point is, cameras limited to f/5.6 are limited by the firmware, and as the statement from motorhead indicates, when you trick that firmware so an f/8 lens appears to be f/5.6, AF is attempted and can succeed.

I'm not suggesting adding AF points or anything like that. To revise your rather off-base analogy to something better aligned to the current discussion, an i5 processor is limited to a given clock speed by firmware (in effect). While it cannot be turned into an i7, it's quite possible to change the 'firmware' and overclock the processor.  That's pretty much what the pin taping trick does, and if Canon decided to officially support that, it would be a better implementation.
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Re: 1D X Limitations Fixable?
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2012, 04:08:00 PM »