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Author Topic: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?  (Read 5558 times)

poias

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Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« on: January 08, 2012, 04:40:50 PM »
D4 was announced 2 days ago and there are dozens of full res high ISO samples already, but 1Dx is nowhere to be seen and it was announced 3 months ago!

Not necessarily whining, but why can't Canon release high resolution samples of a product that was released months ago? Also, Nikon has allowed it D4 to dozens of photographers, but 1Dx is restricted so that its images cannot be shared.

Disclosure: my company is 100% Canon, but at its tipping point -- go with D4 for its awesome stills/video specs and faster release, or stick with Canon 1D series and hoping 5D comes out blazing.

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Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« on: January 08, 2012, 04:40:50 PM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 04:50:54 PM »
Nikon cameras have actually been in production for a while and will be delivering a month ahead of Canon, so the images are likely production quality, and they do not mind releasing them.

Canon is still about 3 months away from delivery, and they are likely still working on the firmware.  Camera companies do not want images released until they are satisfied that the firmware is at the production level, and the images are what you should expect from a delivered product.

sometimes, beta firmware images have bugs in them, and Canon does not want them ouut there.

traveller

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 05:41:31 PM »
I've got a sneaking suspicion that Canon knew that Nikon were ahead in the development of the next-gen flagship cameras and decided to sneak in with an October 2011 announcement to steal their thunder.  Given how similar the two cameras are, it seems to have worked: many people are commenting on how non-revolutionary the D4 seems to be on the stills front (although perhaps this is because the D3S was so good).   

wickidwombat

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 05:44:30 PM »
the D4 has a 33% MP boost over the 3DS and if they get even better high iso performance from it it will be quite impressive. not to mention adding in the f8 AF there will be alot of very happy nikon 200-400 f4 owners out there that can now slap on a 2x TC and get 400-800
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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 06:32:15 PM »
Disclosure: my company is 100% Canon, but at its tipping point -- go with D4 for its awesome stills/video specs and faster release, or stick with Canon 1D series and hoping 5D comes out blazing.

that´s interesting... i always wonder how people manage such a switch?
given that we speak about more then two bodys and two lenses... how comes that people seem to think about switching brands so easily?

i made a short calculation and when i sell all my canon stuff on ebay and had to buy it new from nikon i had to invest an additional 15000 euros (ok then i had everything brand new but that doesn´t cut the cake).

that would make me think if minor video features are worth it.
i could buy a dedicated video cam for that money.

beside.... what awesome features you speak about that a 1D X does not offer??
 
Quote
go with D4 for its awesome stills/video specs

« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:35:36 PM by Canon-F1 »
6D, 5D MK2, 7D, 550D... a lot of Glass.

distant.star

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 08:07:53 PM »
Nikon cameras have actually been in production for a while and will be delivering a month ahead of Canon, so the images are likely production quality, and they do not mind releasing them.

Canon is still about 3 months away from delivery, and they are likely still working on the firmware.  Camera companies do not want images released until they are satisfied that the firmware is at the production level, and the images are what you should expect from a delivered product.

sometimes, beta firmware images have bugs in them, and Canon does not want them ouut there.

If this is true, then why does Canon claim to have a product they call a 1Dx? It doesn't exist in the market, and I can't buy one at any price. Why would you tell the world you have a product when all you really have is a plan to produce such a product six months from the "announcement"? And how do you know Canon is three months away from delivering such a product -- and how do you think it's "likely" they are working on firmware? Where do you get this information?

And speaking of credibility, when did Nikon start producing these cameras you say have been in production "for a while"? How do you know when their factory tooled up and started production runs? Where are you getting this information?
Walter: Were you listening to The Dude's story? Donny: I was bowling. Walter: So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

wickidwombat

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 08:10:51 PM »
http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/
I posted this elsewhere however looks like he had a prototype for the last few months and his production model just arrived...
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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 08:10:51 PM »

kirispupis

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 08:25:32 PM »
I am a bit doubtful of the truth of this but I thought I would pass it on.  This weekend I visited a large camera store here in Seattle and a representative there told me that Canon has told them to expect the 1D-X to release at the end of February.  I asked him if he didn't have this confused with the D4 and he said no - that Canon was releasing earlier because of the D4 release. He added that Canon has not yet set a price though.

Personally I doubt this but it's at least wishful thinking... :)

In terms of sample images, I know someone who has had a chance to play with the camera, but couldn't examine the images in detail. From what he could tell on the camera the images looked about two stops better than the 1D4 - but it's too difficult to tell much from the camera.

I'm not sure why Canon hasn't been more open with images. When they announced the 1D4 sample images were available within days - but then the camera was released a lot sooner.  Perhaps they wanted to see what Nikon can do first - then add a few tweaks...

IMHO they did make one mistake with announcing the camera and its details so early.  They gave Nikon marketing the opportunity to widely broadcast the F8 AF of the D4.
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poias

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 08:47:11 PM »
that´s interesting... i always wonder how people manage such a switch?
given that we speak about more then two bodys and two lenses... how comes that people seem to think about switching brands so easily?

The bodies are pretty much worn and have been deprecated almost entirely. Lenses are different, but they also show wear and tear, so it would not be too hard to write them off and sell them. When I said we were at the tipping point, I meant that our equipment needed to be replaced soon... so far Canon has been good, but now Nikon (D4) seems to be the strongest contender.

Quote
i made a short calculation and when i sell all my canon stuff on ebay and had to buy it new from nikon i had to invest an additional 15000 euros (ok then i had everything brand new but that doesn´t cut the cake).

Exactly, we get new equipment that is going to last another 4-5 years easily!

Quote
that would make me think if minor video features are worth it.
i could buy a dedicated video cam for that money.

Good luck finding cinematic/footage with under $10k non-DSLR equipment.

Quote
beside.... what awesome features you speak about that a 1D X does not offer??

Clean HDMI output for one. Audio monitoring for another.

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 09:33:43 PM »
.
If this is true, then why does Canon claim to have a product they call a 1Dx? It doesn't exist in the market, and I can't buy one at any price.

Go down to your local camera shop tommorrow and buy a D4.  You can't buy one at any price, just place a deposit and get your name on a list.  Same for Canon 1DX 

Why would you tell the world you have a product when all you really have is a plan to produce such a product six months from the "announcement"?

According to Nikon Rumors, nikon was set to announce about the time Canon did.  Unfortunately, their components factory in Thailand was flooded.  I think they were wise to delay an announcement until they got things under control.

And how do you know Canon is three months away from delivering such a product 

How do you know they are being delivered in 6 months?  How do you know Nikon will be delivered in February?  Its because that is what was announced!

-- and how do you think it's "likely" they are working on firmware? Where do you get this information?

I've worked in the electronics manufacturing industry for many years.  I know how long typical lead times are.  Canon has said they are building 7000 units a month, this is to build up enough inventory to give cameras to many but not all dealers.  Firmware/ software is always the last thing to be completed, you have to test lots of cameras for many hours to find the bugs, and you can bet they are still testing.


And speaking of credibility, when did Nikon start producing these cameras you say have been in production "for a while"? How do you know when their factory tooled up and started production runs? Where are you getting this information?

If Nikon is delivering D4 cameras in February, they do go by sea to the distributors, and then to the dealers.  They also go thru customs inspections.  This takes TIME, at least two weeks, probably more!

Do you think manufacturers start making Cameras the day before they appear in the shops?  Many of the components are long lead time, on the order of months.




[\quote]

hhelmbold

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 04:17:56 AM »
All the talk about firmware, production, Nikon D4 launch dates etc does make sens - but the lack od 1D X sample photos still remains unclear to me.

Before the 1D X was announced, everyone was speculating about the new camera coming and there were so many rumours of Canon prototypes being out in the field... what happened to all those "prototype" photos that were taken with the prototypes? And yes... I also understand fully that prototype photos are the research on which the final product is built and it is not something you necessarily want to share with the public, but going into production means that the hardware has been finalized. The firmware is just the communication language between the hardware... surely the hardware must have been tested?

There's also a Canon EOS-1D X video ad in Monaco by pro photographer Frits van Eldik and Mike Owen where they really sell the camera.... where's their sample photos? Are they endorsing a product they don't know what the results will be?

I'm sorry - but I just cannot buy into the idea that we are waiting for firmware to be finalized to see some sample images.

All this said... I believe in Canon and they must have a REAL reason for this and I do think this camera is going to be a game changer... but I can't help my curiosity to SEE some real proof.

well_dunno

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 08:02:46 AM »
Perhaps Canon was waiting for D4 to be announced for last tweaks on 1DX?

JR

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 08:30:53 AM »
All the talk about firmware, production, Nikon D4 launch dates etc does make sens - but the lack od 1D X sample photos still remains unclear to me.

Before the 1D X was announced, everyone was speculating about the new camera coming and there were so many rumours of Canon prototypes being out in the field... what happened to all those "prototype" photos that were taken with the prototypes? And yes... I also understand fully that prototype photos are the research on which the final product is built and it is not something you necessarily want to share with the public, but going into production means that the hardware has been finalized. The firmware is just the communication language between the hardware... surely the hardware must have been tested?

There's also a Canon EOS-1D X video ad in Monaco by pro photographer Frits van Eldik and Mike Owen where they really sell the camera.... where's their sample photos? Are they endorsing a product they don't know what the results will be?

I'm sorry - but I just cannot buy into the idea that we are waiting for firmware to be finalized to see some sample images.

All this said... I believe in Canon and they must have a REAL reason for this and I do think this camera is going to be a game changer... but I can't help my curiosity to SEE some real proof.

I really do beleive Canon is waiting to finalize its firmware before releasing RAW file to the public.  Of course RAW file must exist from the prototype out there but I really beleive Canon's policy is not to use prototype camera as the basis for this.

Trust me we all want to see those RAW file to see just how good the 1DX really is!  As I recall though, when Canon announced the 1DX in October, they deliberately said the cameras was not finalized and that they were looking for feedback to final tweak it for March 2012.  Granted this may not be typical, but so far they are being consistent.  Some specs were not final at time of announcement (for example no weight figures).

With the D4 announced now and less then a month to its launch date (mid Feb), I dont beleive we have seen any RAW file from Nikon as well, and they are much closer to launch then Canon is for its 1DX.  So all and all both manufacturer seem to wait till the last minute when everything is ready to release those first production units which will serve as the basis for real life testing.

We should start seing RAW file from the D4 by the end of January I would guess and hopefully some 1DX RAW file by the end of February or early March, but not before...

I know, the wait is killing me too!   ;)
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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 08:30:53 AM »

cfargo

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 10:57:20 AM »
When have you ever publicly seen a raw file from any Canon Prototype Camera? Never, thats right as it always has been and still is their policy to not release raw images captured with Prototype Cameras or Lenses. Once the production version is nailed down, you will start seeing raw images. Sure there are individuals out there who test prototype bodies and lenses for Canon but by contract, they are not permitted to share/release raw images.

In the case of the 1Dx, it is the finalization of the firmware which is holding up the release of a production camera I'm told. All the 1Dx's at PMA had their memory card slots sealed shut so to not allow attendees to try to capture images, this is normal. When they show new lenses at a show (that aren't production released yet), again they will not allow you to capture an image with them. They want to ensure that before anyone out their starts comparing raw images that they are doing so with a production release products. Prototypes can be buggy and do not meet the the final quality control standards of production release products and this is true in most all industries.

I will say that not only us end user are disappointed at the f/5.6 limitation, we have 99.9% of their tech/sales reps pulling for a fix to this issue.

As far as why you are seeing raw images from Nikon, I can only assume that they are further along with the D4 then Canon is with the 1Dx and that they have a production release version of their firmware. As you can tell, Canon chose to announce the 1Dx earlier in it's manufacturing stage than Nikon did with the D4.  This is a marketing decision and it isn't right for me to judge them on this but it does make me salivate for a longer period than the guys on the dark side have to.

poias

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 02:09:25 PM »
Forget about RAWs, but what we want to see are JPG samples to gauge how good 1Dx, which was announced 3 months ago! Nikon was announced a week ago and there are hundreds of full sized JPGs floating around showing what D4 can do... but NOTHING from 1Dx. Very frustrating when we are in the middle of a decision making process.

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Re: Why aren't there full-res 1Dx samples?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 02:09:25 PM »