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Author Topic: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions  (Read 12691 times)

chasinglight

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Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« on: November 06, 2015, 09:58:37 AM »
To make this short, I am going to be filming some interviews with family in a couple weeks. I plan to use multiple cameras for certain shots. I have a 6D, 5DIII, and a Panasonic x920. The x920 only shoots in 1920x1080/60p, meanwhile the Canons will shoot either 1920x1080/30fps or 1280x720/60fps. So the question is, for the end result is it better to shoot the canons at 1920x1080/30fps and convert the frame rate of the x920 to 30fps? Or is it better to shoot the canons at 1280x720/60fps and upscale/downscale the footage to match? If it matters I use Sony Vegas for editing.

Thanks for your help in advance. Cheers!

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Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« on: November 06, 2015, 09:58:37 AM »

mkabi

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 10:14:44 PM »
Sorry, just saw this now...
Have you started or finished?

In any case, for future reference...
What kind of look are you going for???
Documentary, real feel? Or Cinematic look?
If its Documentary style, shoot everything in 1080/30p.
If its Cinematic look then shoot everything in 1080/24p.

There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.

Anyway, depends on the editor. What editor do you use?
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expatinasia

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2015, 01:56:14 AM »
You're going to notice a difference in quality even when shooting at the same rate.

I cannot speak about the cameras you have specifically, but I have used different cameras and unless they are the same in terms of lens, settings and even the same camera itself you will see differences - sometimes really big differences - even when shooting at 1920x1080.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, depending on what you want and how serious it is, but what I would suggest is to test them and look at how the finished shots differ.

I know I was not happy with the results it gave me. Of course, same camera, lens, settings you should get pretty identical footage in terms of quality.
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tpatana

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2015, 02:19:18 AM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

mkabi

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2015, 12:25:33 PM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

I'm quite sure that if and when you play 1080p60, it looks like its something out Benny hill (i.e. speeded up)... So down conversion... Whether you see it as normal speed or slow motion is in the eye of the beholder. Try 24p and tell me different.

Edited to add: if you still don't agree, borrow/rent a high speed camera... Heck the gh4 does 96fps or the rx100 iv and a7s ii does 1080p120... Convert it to 30... At least then you will see what I'm talking about.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 01:23:20 PM by mkabi »
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rs

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2015, 12:43:34 PM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

I'm quite sure that if and when you play 1080p60, it looks like it something out Benny hill (i.e. speeded up)... So down conversion... Whether you see it as normal speed or slow motion is in the eye of the beholder. Try 24p and tell me different.

There are ways of altering the temporal resolution of video without affecting the timeline, much like you can convert the spatial resolution of a photo without showing a different crop of the image. Ever seen 60p footage shown back on a TV in real time? Ever seen a complete image from a 5DS shown on the screen of a phone?
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mkabi

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 01:02:27 PM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

I'm quite sure that if and when you play 1080p60, it looks like it something out Benny hill (i.e. speeded up)... So down conversion... Whether you see it as normal speed or slow motion is in the eye of the beholder. Try 24p and tell me different.

There are ways of altering the temporal resolution of video without affecting the timeline, much like you can convert the spatial resolution of a photo without showing a different crop of the image. Ever seen 60p footage shown back on a TV in real time? Ever seen a complete image from a 5DS shown on the screen of a phone?

Is that how you understand 60p as opposed to 30/24p? As a form of resolution???
I see it as frame rates....
Like how a 1dx can do 12-14 frames per second. And the 5d3 does 5fps...
24p is 24 frames per second and 60p is 60 frames per second, I guess that because I see it as a function of time, I can't see past affecting the timeline.
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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 01:02:27 PM »

tpatana

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 01:39:32 PM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

I'm quite sure that if and when you play 1080p60, it looks like its something out Benny hill (i.e. speeded up)... So down conversion... Whether you see it as normal speed or slow motion is in the eye of the beholder. Try 24p and tell me different.

Edited to add: if you still don't agree, borrow/rent a high speed camera... Heck the gh4 does 96fps or the rx100 iv and a7s ii does 1080p120... Convert it to 30... At least then you will see what I'm talking about.

You're totally mixing 2 different items. Yes, if you take p120 video and play all frames at the speed of p30, it'll look 1/4 slow motion. But any normal video edit software, you can take any frame rate video as input, and output it at another frame rate at while maintaining the normal speed. So p120 -> p30 conversion and still keep the same speed.

mkabi

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 02:17:08 PM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

I'm quite sure that if and when you play 1080p60, it looks like its something out Benny hill (i.e. speeded up)... So down conversion... Whether you see it as normal speed or slow motion is in the eye of the beholder. Try 24p and tell me different.

Edited to add: if you still don't agree, borrow/rent a high speed camera... Heck the gh4 does 96fps or the rx100 iv and a7s ii does 1080p120... Convert it to 30... At least then you will see what I'm talking about.

You're totally mixing 2 different items. Yes, if you take p120 video and play all frames at the speed of p30, it'll look 1/4 slow motion. But any normal video edit software, you can take any frame rate video as input, and output it at another frame rate at while maintaining the normal speed. So p120 -> p30 conversion and still keep the same speed.

At which point you are throwing away frames and you have choppy video.
Of course you dont' see that with 60p to 30p because it is only every other frame, even when you slow it down to 30p, you obviously only see it as normal speed from an already speeded up video (more recommended than throwing away frames).
Like RS asked, "Ever seen 60p footage shown back on a TV in real time?"
Yes, like in sports, and when put in 30p it looks normal, or close enough.
You can't do that with 120p... you're saying that there is a way that you can blend it all together smoothly so that it all looks all nice and  normal without throwing away frames... please... show me how.
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rs

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 05:52:55 PM »
There is a way to convert the frame rate down from 60p to 30/24p. But understand that when you are doing this, you are going to get a slow motion effect. I am sure there are other options on the x920, dig deep into the menu. I am sure everything coming out of the x920 isn't slow motion.


A... wut?

I'm quite sure that my 1080p60 videos are normal speed when I convert to 1080p30. I can make them slow motion if I want, but just converting 60 down doesn't mean it'll be slow motion.

I'm quite sure that if and when you play 1080p60, it looks like it something out Benny hill (i.e. speeded up)... So down conversion... Whether you see it as normal speed or slow motion is in the eye of the beholder. Try 24p and tell me different.

There are ways of altering the temporal resolution of video without affecting the timeline, much like you can convert the spatial resolution of a photo without showing a different crop of the image. Ever seen 60p footage shown back on a TV in real time? Ever seen a complete image from a 5DS shown on the screen of a phone?

Is that how you understand 60p as opposed to 30/24p? As a form of resolution???
I see it as frame rates....
Like how a 1dx can do 12-14 frames per second. And the 5d3 does 5fps...
24p is 24 frames per second and 60p is 60 frames per second, I guess that because I see it as a function of time, I can't see past affecting the timeline.

A stills camera captures just one moment in time as its final output from capture is one photo. The frame rate is just one element which contributes to the camera helping the operator capture the moment. Therefore, a stills cameras frame rate has nothing to do with resolution.

However, a video is more than just the scene compressed into a two dimensional output medium. It has the added dimension of time. Just like X and Y resolution, the more there is, the more likely it is to trick the eye into appearing like reality. To say the way one of the captured dimensions is divided into individual elements is not a resolution is a misnomer.
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mkabi

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2015, 08:45:54 PM »
However, a video is more than just the scene compressed into a two dimensional output medium. It has the added dimension of time. Just like X and Y resolution, the more there is, the more likely it is to trick the eye into appearing like reality.

I will agree that it has "added dimension of time," as I have already pointed out that frames per second is a "function of time."

I will also agree that it does "trick the eye," but it doesn't take much to trick the eye. For example, you ever heard the phrase "the hand is quicker than the eye"? Just wave your hand across your face (just once), did you see it? No? Or how about this illusion -> take a pen, hold it in the middle and wiggle it fast... you will see the pen bend.

Ok.. with that out of the way... I do not, however, agree with the following statement...

Quote
To say the way one of the captured dimensions is divided into individual elements is not a resolution is a misnomer.

...and we can agree to disagree if you want...
I see frames per second as individual and as separate from resolution.
24 individual pictures with slight movements inbetween them, and large movements from first picture to the last picture, shown to us in 1 second is what constitutes "motion pictures"
Like this:


Can you see more detail in 30p as opposed to 24p, yes...
Is it going to be more sharper, yes...

But that's cause you have more pictures within a second to inspect...
Now, can you see even more detail and sharpness in 60p as opposed to 30p, it should if it is part of resolution and if you believe that the more pictures you have within a second the more you have to inspect... but it doesn't... I strongly believe that there is a point of no return with more and more fps. It becomes too fast for the eye to inspect...

Lastly, just cause you're eyes doesn't see it doesn't mean that resolution is lowered or becomes higher.
720p will remain 720p...
1080p will remain 1080p...
4K will remain 4K...
and so on...






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tpatana

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 10:29:59 PM »
At which point you are throwing away frames and you have choppy video.

Yes, more frame rate is smoother. But if you record 1080p30, it would be same (ish) as 1080p60 converted to 1080p30. Basically you just throw out every other frame. Coding and such could affect some amount, but given everything equal, the 1080p30 should be same no matter which path you ended there.

sanj

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2015, 12:59:44 AM »
I would not worry about it. Mix them without stress. Have fun.

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2015, 12:59:44 AM »

WIDEnet

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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2015, 02:18:05 AM »
Shoot 1080p30 on both cameras, unless you are shooting a lot of high motion scenes. According to the x920's specs, it does in fact shoot 1080p30, and given that you're shooting at about half the compression ratio with 30p (given half the frames to compress at almost the same bitrate) there should be a noticeable improvement in quality over the 60p, plus you get twice the exposure time for an equivalent shutter angle (i.e. better low light, though the 5D3 should crush it in that regard), which will likely be worth the lower frame rate unless there is a lot of fast action in the frame, plus no need to conform in post. As a sidenote, if you have a 5DIII, I would never use a 6D over it for video due to aliasing, moire, line-skpping, codec, lack of real MLV raw video option, worse ML support, etc. unless you absolutely must have a multicamera setup for punch ins or alternate angle shots of a talking head.

If you are, however, shooting high action scenes along with your sit down interviews, you consider shooting 60p on your x920 for those and stick everything on a 60p timeline, with the 30p footage being simply frame-doubled (automaticlaly, I'd imagine). As long as your 30p footage didn't have a lot of motion or was intercut a lot with your 60p shots, I doubt the casual viewer would notice the difference.

Although its a moot point, to get 1080p60 shot video to match the motion cadence of 1080p30 (assuming equal sensor characteristics, which is almost certainly not the case here), just shoot your 1080p60 video at a shutter angle of 360deg, aka a shutter speed of 1/60, and shoot your 30p video at the normal 180deg/1/60. Then, if mastering to a 30p timeline, conform your 60p video to 30p by simple 2:1 pulldown (dropping every other frame). However, again, either of the above make a lot more sense since you either get the advantages of 60p, or else better quality at a much more

If I were to shoot it, as long as I didn't have to run and gun a ton, I would shoot on the 5DIII as much as possible at maxed out bitrate H.264 for the interviews, and MLV 14-bit raw if you can afford it for the other shots, assuming they are not too extensive and you have the cards and time in post for it. It may sound daunting, and isn't for everyone, but even if you immediately transcode your raw files to ProRes 422 or the like you should see a considerable improvement in resolution, DR, gradeability, and overall IQ over even the highest bitrate H.264 output, since "1080p" on most of the Canon DSLRs is really closer to upscaled 720p than true 1080p resolution, and of course even with custom log-like picture styles you don't get the camera's full DR or really gradeabile footage. But I digress.
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Re: Advice on mixing video frame rates and resolutions
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2015, 02:18:05 AM »