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Author Topic: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner  (Read 28136 times)

Act444

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EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« on: November 11, 2015, 07:23:05 PM »
So today I found that my local camera store had the M10 in stock. Since it was their only one, I wasn't able to actually shoot with it, but I was able to see it/hold it and I brought along my M to compare size-wise.

- The M10 has roughly the same footprint size-wise as the M (when face down) but the M10 is a bit thicker. (likely due to the flip screen)

- Although the M10 lacks the front grip that the M has, I still think the camera feels solid enough and I got used to holding it fairly quickly. YMMV on this one b/c I know camera ergonomics are a very personal thing...

- The M10 is actually a little heavier than the M (but not significantly so). Even with the battery and card inside the M, when I held both of them, the bare M10 felt at least the same weight if not a bit heavier.

_____________________

Fast forward to a few moments later when I was contemplating a trade-in (I was actually more interested in the 15-45mm lens but given the price difference, thought it would make more sense to just get it in the M10 kit) and ended up doing just that. So thoughts after a couple hours playing with the M10 - in many ways it's an upgrade from the M, but in a few somewhat surprising ways it's also a downgrade as well.


Benefits over the M:

- Flip screen. This may not be a big deal to many folks, but this is one of my main reasons for the switch. Flips up 180 degrees (but doesn't swivel or tilt down).

- Pop-up flash! Another big reason for switching. When you slide the switch, the flash pops up and extends out in front of the camera (like the M3). Does not bounce, however - and only pops up when the screen is down or almost down (it gets blocked if the screen is tilted too much). The flash is tiny and only has limited range, but it sure beats having to carry around the 90EX flash (which I also got rid of) for dark places.  *CLARIFICATION* (See post #10 below): You CAN use the pop up flash when the screen is tilted 180 degrees, but it cannot be engaged - you must first flip the screen back down, pop the flash, then raise the screen again.

- WiFi connectivity is another great upgrade. Although it took a few minutes to set up initially, having your phone as the display/camera remote opens up a whole world of possibilities composition-wise. And transfer of images happens very quickly, too...in just a few seconds I can select my image, transfer it and have it in my phone's camera roll where it is ready for use in texts, social media updates, e-mails, etc. (I hope Canon finds a way to include this feature in the upcoming 5D4!)

- High ISO performance on the M10 is SLIGHTLY better (not significantly so, though - still not as good as the 7D Mark II).

- While shooting, the histogram can be displayed in a box on screen and it updates in real time. (I think you could also do this on the M but I prefer the implementation on the M10)

- I tested the M10 with the adapter + the 28 2.8 IS and I found that the AF hunted less and was more decisive.

- In playback mode there is a nice Image Search feature - I think that is new.

- The record movie button seems to work in stills mode as well - this was not the case with the M


Drawbacks:

- No hot-shoe (but you knew that already).

- M10 shutter sound is louder. The M had an audible "snap" to it but on the M10 there is a definite CLICK when you take a picture. So that would make it harder for discrete shooting (if not in a moderately loud environment)...but no worse than any DSLR. Then again, the M wasn't exactly quiet anyway...

- No customizable menu! ("My Menu") A bit of a surprise to me because even the Rebel SL1 has this.

- Weird quirk with viewing RAW images on the camera display when shooting RAW only: image becomes very pixellated/grainy when zoomed in. Too pixellated to check focus, etc. This is the only Canon camera I've used where I've experienced this "phenomenon" - this was NOT the case with the M, nor is it the case with any Canon DSLR I've ever used (including the SL1), where a high-res JPG preview can be generated from the RAW file itself to show on the screen. Don't know if it's a bug or what, but the only workaround with the M10 is to shoot both RAW + JPEG so the camera has an associated file to use when generating the high-res preview. Maybe this can be something that's looked into once there are more M10 owners?

-  I found the M10 menu system somewhat less straightforward than the original M... plus, I'm seeing fewer customization options in general at least when it comes to menu settings. This would just mean that certain features would just require more button presses and menu searching. Mostly that's just due to the lack of the "My Menu" option.



General observations about the M10 (neither pros nor cons over the M):

- Image quality continues to be on a high level, especially when used with capable lenses. Again you are getting a heck of a photo out of such a small camera.

- With native EF-M lenses I was unable to find a significant difference in AF performance over the M (software version 2.0). The M10 is slightly snappier if already in range, but if it's vastly out of focus or it's poorly lit, AF can and does still hunt (and fail to lock on).

- The 15-45mm lens...15mm vs. 18mm is not much but it's enough to make a difference in walkaround shooting. I think I would rather have the 3mm extra on the wide end than the 10mm on the tele end if I was to use this camera for general shooting.

- 15-45mm size: When retracted, it is considerably smaller than the 18-55 (and this can make the difference in whether the camera comes along!)...however, when in use, I find that there is little difference in size/handling between the two lenses. The 15-45 remains the lighter of the two lenses though. It is still larger than the 22mm regardless so don't expect to fit M body + 15-45 into a case that's just large enough for the M + 22.

- Quality of the 15-45: can't speak too much of it yet, but from a few test shots inside it didn't exactly blow me away (but it's not awful either). At 15mm f3.5 I felt corners/edges on my test images were quite soft - and there is some distortion as well. Center of the image is very sharp though. However, I would need more extensive use with it, especially outdoors/landscape to have a final opinion.
 

___________________

I think that for me, the M10 is a hybrid of amazing upgrades and puzzling downgrades (in terms of feature set and control). However, at the end of the day, the 5D3 is always my go-to camera for any big event...and when I need extensive reach or speed, I've got the 7D2. The role of the M over the years has been mostly as a backup/secondary camera to my primary DSLR setup; the M also found use at work-related events as well as other shows or venues where a DSLR setup would either not be allowed or would be excessively cumbersome. The M has gotten me some great shots over the 3 years I've had it, many that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and I expect that the M10 will continue that legacy. For me, when it's all said and done, with the move from the M to the M10, I think the positive aspects outweigh the negative ones...and for that reason I consider myself a satisfied buyer.

Thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 10:32:23 PM by Act444 »

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EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« on: November 11, 2015, 07:23:05 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 07:40:25 PM »
Thanks for sharing!
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eninja

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 08:35:48 PM »
I want to be able to use remote speedlite. Is there a work around for the speedlite to sense the light of flash coming from the camera?
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Act444

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2015, 09:15:52 PM »
I want to be able to use remote speedlite. Is there a work around for the speedlite to sense the light of flash coming from the camera?

Hmm...that I do not know, unfortunately.

koenkooi

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2015, 04:16:38 AM »
- No customizable menu! ("My Menu") A bit of a surprise to me because even the Rebel SL1 has this.

- Weird quirk with viewing RAW images on the camera display when shooting RAW only: image becomes very pixellated/grainy when zoomed in. Too pixellated to check focus, etc. This is the only Canon camera I've used where I've experienced this "phenomenon" - this was NOT the case with the M, nor is it the case with any Canon DSLR I've ever used (including the SL1), where a high-res JPG preview can be generated from the RAW file itself to show on the screen. Don't know if it's a bug or what, but the only workaround with the M10 is to shoot both RAW + JPEG so the camera has an associated file to use when generating the high-res preview. Maybe this can be something that's looked into once there are more M10 owners?

-  I found the M10 menu system somewhat less straightforward than the original M... plus, I'm seeing fewer customization options in general at least when it comes to menu settings. This would just mean that certain features would just require more button presses and menu searching. Mostly that's just due to the lack of the "My Menu" option.

The M3 and M10 are using powershot firmwares, the M1 and M2 were using EOS firmwares. The menu system change is due to that.

For me this means that there won't be a Magic Lantern for M3/M10, but the CHDK folks are already working on an M3 version, maybe M10 will follow later on.

iKenndac

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2015, 06:18:53 AM »
The M3 and M10 are using powershot firmwares, the M1 and M2 were using EOS firmwares. The menu system change is due to that.

The M3 has a customisable "My Menu". No idea why the M10 doesn't.

neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2015, 06:47:55 AM »
I want to be able to use remote speedlite. Is there a work around for the speedlite to sense the light of flash coming from the camera?

You'd need an optical slave trigger.  However, for that to work the M10 would need to allow you to manually set the flash power, else the pre-flash emitted to determine flash exposure will prematurely trigger the optical slave(s).  Not sure if manual flash exposure control is possible on the M10, find that out before shopping for triggers!

Assuming you have Canon Speedlites, you'd need a Sonia optical trigger (green), and possibly a hotshoe PC adapter (580/600 flashes have a PC port).  There are cheaper optical triggers for non-Canon flashes (not that the Sonia green is too expensive), and there are 3rd party flashes with built-in optical slave capability. 
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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2015, 06:47:55 AM »

sunnyVan

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2015, 10:34:06 AM »
I think the intended customers are not any of us on this forum. There're very few reasons to choose m10 over m1. I'm not even sure who m10 is for. If it's really for people who have few clues about how a real camera works, wouldn't these people rather get the G series. Do they care about sensor size or being able to change lens?
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crisotunity

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2015, 11:44:19 AM »
I was actually looking forward to the M10. I've been happy enough with the M1 and (including trade-in) I wouldn't have minded paying £250-odd for a slightly faster AF, the slightly wider kit lens, the flippy screen, the built-in flash and the wifi functionality. It's my secondary camera and I don't really need the enthusiast level stuff on the M3.
 
Shame that the flash is not tiltable and can't work with the screen half-way up; great shame that the firmware is a step back from the M1/M2; and a pity that Canon put a a slow CPU in there. I'm going to stick to my M1 and see how it goes in 2016.
I honestly feel that Canon have nailed the touch UI with the SL1/100D and the M series. There is an amazing, user-friendly, joy-to-use camera struggling to get out of Canon's M-labelled straight-jacket: I'd love to see them going all out with the next M instead of fretting over their low-end DSLRs.   

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2015, 04:00:17 PM »
thank you for this detailed and well written preview, Act444!

I greatly appreciate!
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Act444

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2015, 04:45:57 PM »
No problem guys.

One thing I should clarify regarding the pop-up flash - you actually can use the flash when the screen is all the way up (so yes, flash selfies are possible) - you just can't pop it up WHILE the screen is up. You have to pop up the flash when the screen is down, THEN raise the screen up. Sorry if that point confused anyone at first.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 06:04:53 PM by Act444 »

eninja

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2015, 10:05:40 PM »
I want to be able to use remote speedlite. Is there a work around for the speedlite to sense the light of flash coming from the camera?

You'd need an optical slave trigger.  However, for that to work the M10 would need to allow you to manually set the flash power, else the pre-flash emitted to determine flash exposure will prematurely trigger the optical slave(s).  Not sure if manual flash exposure control is possible on the M10, find that out before shopping for triggers!

Assuming you have Canon Speedlites, you'd need a Sonia optical trigger (green), and possibly a hotshoe PC adapter (580/600 flashes have a PC port).  There are cheaper optical triggers for non-Canon flashes (not that the Sonia green is too expensive), and there are 3rd party flashes with built-in optical slave capability.

Hi Neuro, thanks, I knew there is a work around, I just did not now what is the term to start with. With this eos M10, all I worry is when I want to use a speedlite on a controlled scene.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 12:23:20 AM »
I want to be able to use remote speedlite. Is there a work around for the speedlite to sense the light of flash coming from the camera?

You'd need an optical slave trigger.  However, for that to work the M10 would need to allow you to manually set the flash power, else the pre-flash emitted to determine flash exposure will prematurely trigger the optical slave(s).  Not sure if manual flash exposure control is possible on the M10, find that out before shopping for triggers!

Assuming you have Canon Speedlites, you'd need a Sonia optical trigger (green), and possibly a hotshoe PC adapter (580/600 flashes have a PC port).  There are cheaper optical triggers for non-Canon flashes (not that the Sonia green is too expensive), and there are 3rd party flashes with built-in optical slave capability.

Hi Neuro, thanks, I knew there is a work around, I just did not now what is the term to start with. With this eos M10, all I worry is when I want to use a speedlite on a controlled scene.

Sort of a kuudgy workaround.  I just had a look at the M10 manual, and there is no way to manually set the flash power level, it's always automatic flash exposure (there's flash exposure comp, but that's just modified automatic exposure).  In other words, there will always be a pre flash to determine the flash exposure, and that will prematurely trigger any optical slave flashes. 

So, the only way it will work is to use the flash exposure lock (FEL) feature.  That fires the pre flash (which triggers the slaves) but delays the actual flash until you shoot.  So, you'd activate FEL and the preflash would fire, then you'd wait for the slaves to recycle, then take the shot and the on-camera flash would fire with the shot and trigger the slaves at the right time. 

Like I said, kludgy.  Depends on how important it is to you...
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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 12:23:20 AM »

ninjapeps

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2015, 02:06:24 AM »
Sort of a kuudgy workaround.  I just had a look at the M10 manual, and there is no way to manually set the flash power level, it's always automatic flash exposure (there's flash exposure comp, but that's just modified automatic exposure).  In other words, there will always be a pre flash to determine the flash exposure, and that will prematurely trigger any optical slave flashes. 

So, the only way it will work is to use the flash exposure lock (FEL) feature.  That fires the pre flash (which triggers the slaves) but delays the actual flash until you shoot.  So, you'd activate FEL and the preflash would fire, then you'd wait for the slaves to recycle, then take the shot and the on-camera flash would fire with the shot and trigger the slaves at the right time. 

Like I said, kludgy.  Depends on how important it is to you...

If you're hand-holding a flash, you can block the sensor first to keep it from getting triggered by the pre-flash. If they'll be in fixed locations, you can use your hand to block the pop-up flash. Those are what a friend of mine did when his flash's foot broke. Still not very good solutions but options are limited.
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jd7

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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2015, 06:28:21 AM »
... I'd love to see them going all out with the next M instead of fretting over their low-end DSLRs.

At the risk of going too far off topic ... and without directing this at Crisotunity in particular ...

I see this sort of comment often enough around the interwebs, and I'm always curious. As a genuine question, what is the reasoning which leads to the conclusion that Canon is not releasing a high-end / prosumer / however you would like to describe it mirrorless camera in an attempt to protect low-end DSLR sales?

FWIW, my thinking is this:

I assume Canon's cost of manufacture of a mirrorless camera and a low-end DSLR is pretty similar (I don't have a great basis for that, so perhaps I'm wrong?).

I believe I am correct in saying the sales figures tell us that the great proportion of low-end DSLR buyers only own one lens, and that very, very few low-end DSLR buyers are going to have a large stable of lenses.

So, why would Canon care if buyers who might have bought a low-end DSLR buy a low-end mirrorless camera instead, provided they buy a Canon camera??

In fact, I would speculate there is a market out there amongst existing DSLR owners who are more likely to be tempted by a mirrorless camera than buying another low-end DSLR.

To the extent buyers might become interested in moving up to higher end gear, the changeover from EF-M to EF (or indeed to EF-S) may well not be very different for many users compared with the changeover from EF-S to EF.  Certainly some people with EF-S crop cameras build up a collection of EF lenses before getting a full frame camera, but what percentage of buyers are we talking about?  And in any event, Canon selling a "better" prosumer mirrorless camera doesn't stop it from also selling EF-S crop cameras and no doubt some people would still go that way, plus Canon's EF lens portfolio is likely to be a draw-card for many photographers regardless of what gear they start with.  So, looking at it overall, it is not obvious to me that Canon would really risk losing that many people along the path to higher end gear if more of them started with EF-M than EF-S.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason Canon doesn't have a "better" prosumer mirrorless camera has a more innocent explanation than is often suggested:  I think Canon doesn't see the value proposition in it for enough of their likely customers.  A low-end DSLR may not seem as "high tech", but battery life is better, AF is probably going to be as good in many cases (probably debate-able, but think about cameras at comparable price points), OVF v EFV (subjective as to which you prefer), etc.  I think Canon sees the value proposition in mirrorless cameras, at least with the present state of technology, as being for small/light cameras and related lenses (as seen in the EOS M system), and otherwise that you are better off with a DSLR for now.  If/when the technology for mirrorless enables them to make a comparable camera (in terms of its abilities as a photographic tool) to a low-end DSLR at a similar price point, I don't see why Canon won't be selling mirrorless cameras in a range of sizes/weights, and perhaps even with various lens mounts (at least EF-M mirrorless cameras and EF mirrorless cameras).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 06:31:56 AM by jd7 »
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Re: EOS M10 - First impressions from a (now former) M owner
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2015, 06:28:21 AM »