1DX vs 1D IV ??

[Picsfor]

Mmmm, the 1D series has never really set me alight until the 1DX, and i've had a play with them all.

the 1DX really is a different beast, and i really do have a hankering to become a proud owner. As my 'every day camera is a 5D2 with battery grip' - carting a 1DX around would make no difference in bulk and weight - but a helluva lot of difference in performance and 'keepers'.

But as always, the choice is yours...

[Crapking]

Appreciate all the feedback, but would like even more personal experiences with the ISO/AF 'differences' between the 7D , 1dIV and speculation about the 1Dx. 

With only a single weekend's experience with the 1dIV, swapping back and forth with 7D, I didn't see a DRAMATIC improvement in capture rate of the AF with 1dIV.  Shooting moving targets in the 'dark', I use ZONE selection with the 7D sometimes, and overall I don't miss many shots b/c of AF.  However, with all the individual points on the 1dIV, it seemed to take me longer to cycle through to where I needed them.  Maybe I just needed to get more familiar with the 1dIV? but i missed the ZONE and 4 point expansion options.
To be sure, the 1Dx is bringing the AF to a new level, so that is definitely a plus there over the 1dIV.

With respect to ISO / low-level performance though, I obviously saw improvement between the 7D and 1dIV.  Shooting with the 7D at max 3200 mostly, I have come to deal with the noise, but am limited in really dark gyms.  I was able to shoot 4000-12,800 with 1dIV in this dark environment, but did have quite a bit of noise, most of which cleaned up in ACR pretty well. But with hundreds of shots, it does take time.  What I should have done was take the same type shot with both bodies at the same ISO to compare noise but this was my first 2 body shoot and I was simply too busy focused on having 2 different lenses/options available and didn't really plan enough on a head-head comparison, my bad.

Will the 'improved' 1Dx ISO performance mean:
1).  I will have less noise to clean at 2000-3200, or
2).  I will be able to capture shots in the dark gyms where I currently don't get anything very usable.
3).  A little of both (?) 

Other features/benefits aside, how much better can we expect the 1Dx to (out)perform the 1dIV ?  With my shooting style and gym limitations, I can accommodate to the FF vs 1.3 vs 1.6 reach / lens issues with my arsenal, and I am improving my positioning and shot planning at every venue, but I am wavering as to the real-world improvement in the image quality.  Both will be better than my 7d, but HOW much??

Examples

1dIV ISO 6400  135 @2.2 Tv in a really dark gym


PVC18Yellowreedits1D093 by PVC 2012, on Flickr

7d ISO 3200 135 2.2 Tv in a slightly better lit gym



PVC16Black7d014 by PVC 2012, on Flickr

[neuroanatomist]

(I think) Dr Neuro explained fairly persuasively that the x1.3 crop on the 1D4 vs the FF 1DX is essentially meaningless. Cropping a 1DX file in post to a x1.3 value will deliver a file almost indistinguishable from the 1D4 file. Want to chime in here Dr Neuro?

No chance of this i'm afraid
have a look at the iso samples indicating the crops here with the 18MP vs 16MP
http://www.thedigitalpicture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-IV-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx

edit: if you apply a 1.3 crop to the 1Dx resolution of 5184 x 3456 you get 3987x2658 which is 10.6 MP or basically the 1Dmk3

The ISO samples on the TDP review aren't relevant to this issue - those are scaled equivalently across sensor resolutions (i.e. the more MP, the bigger the image).  The issue being discussed is what happens when you crop the FF image to the FoV of a 1.3x crop, or even a 1.6x crop.  The answer is that for approximately equivalent sensor technology, the images aren't too different in terms of IQ, although obviously with the cropped image you end up with far less resolution after cropping.  The crop magnifies the effect of IS noise, alters the DoF along with the framing, etc. 

Put another way, if you buy a FF camera but then have to crop all your images to 1.3x or 1.6x FoV, you're throwing away the IQ advantages of FF over the smaller sensors, and so you might as well just get the cheaper camera (from an IQ standpoint).  Conversely, if you only need to crop a few of your images, the IQ with the FF will be a decided advantage.  That might mean getting longer lenses to compensate for the loss of 1.3x crop...which suits Canon just fine...

[Crapking]

(I think) Dr Neuro explained fairly persuasively that the x1.3 crop on the 1D4 vs the FF 1DX is essentially meaningless. Cropping a 1DX file in post to a x1.3 value will deliver a file almost indistinguishable from the 1D4 file. Want to chime in here Dr Neuro?

No chance of this i'm afraid
have a look at the iso samples indicating the crops here with the 18MP vs 16MP
http://www.thedigitalpicture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-IV-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx

edit: if you apply a 1.3 crop to the 1Dx resolution of 5184 x 3456 you get 3987x2658 which is 10.6 MP or basically the 1Dmk3

The ISO samples on the TDP review aren't relevant to this issue - those are scaled equivalently across sensor resolutions (i.e. the more MP, the bigger the image).  The issue being discussed is what happens when you crop the FF image to the FoV of a 1.3x crop, or even a 1.6x crop.  The answer is that for approximately equivalent sensor technology, the images aren't too different in terms of IQ, although obviously with the cropped image you end up with far less resolution after cropping.  The crop magnifies the effect of IS noise, alters the DoF along with the framing, etc. 

Put another way, if you buy a FF camera but then have to crop all your images to 1.3x or 1.6x FoV, you're throwing away the IQ advantages of FF over the smaller sensors, and so you might as well just get the cheaper camera (from an IQ standpoint).  Conversely, if you only need to crop a few of your images, the IQ with the FF will be a decided advantage.  That might mean getting longer lenses to compensate for the loss of 1.3x crop...which suits Canon just fine...

So if I am able to frame what I need with FF or the 1.3, then my IQ (image quality, not my intelligent quotient will be NOTICEABLY improved over my 7d images?  I am not a pixel peeper but when I enlarge posters to 16x24, should I expect cleaner/sharper images, or at this size, is it only a theoretical advantage?

[neuroanatomist]

So if I am able to frame what I need with FF or the 1.3, then my IQ (image quality, not my intelligent quotient will be NOTICEABLY improved over my 7d images?  I am not a pixel peeper but when I enlarge posters to 16x24, should I expect cleaner/sharper images, or at this size, is it only a theoretical advantage?

Yes, the IQ will be noticeably better than the 7D if you're printing reasonably large and using the whole image (or minimal cropping) from a FF or 1.3x sensor.  That's even more true if you're shooting at higher ISO (or alternately, noise will be similar but you can shoot at even higher ISO).

[kennykodak]

keeping MIV, trading 5DII in towards 1DX.

[briansquibb]

but i missed the ZONE and 4 point expansion options.

They are there on the 1D4 - I use expansion by default.

1D4 has:

- left/right expansion
- one point all round(9points)
- 18 point expansion

The 1D4 has a whole bunch of options around the AF and the AF points mostly (from memory) the same as the 7D plus a few extras.

[Viggo]

but i missed the ZONE and 4 point expansion options.

They are there on the 1D4 - I use expansion by default.

1D4 has:

- left/right expansion
- one point all round(9points)
- 18 point expansion

The 1D4 has a whole bunch of options around the AF and the AF points mostly (from memory) the same as the 7D plus a few extras.

No zone-af or spot-af on the mk4... The X will get the same layout , Q-button, as the 7d..

[neuroanatomist]

No zone-af or spot-af on the mk4...

The 1D IV does have Spot AF, however, it's only available when using a supertele with a lens AF stop button.  On the 7D, Spot AF is available with any lens.

[Viggo]

No zone-af or spot-af on the mk4...

The 1D IV does have Spot AF, however, it's only available when using a supertele with a lens AF stop button.  On the 7D, Spot AF is available with any lens.

Yeah, I know, but to me, it's so stupid to only have it with the supertele's, I left it out on purpose especially since I used to own the 300 2.8 and saw how cool the spot-af really is, only to back to my 85 and miss because it can't do spot...

[revup67]

Put another way, if you buy a FF camera but then have to crop all your images to 1.3x or 1.6x FoV, you're throwing away the IQ advantages of FF over the smaller sensors, and so you might as well just get the cheaper camera (from an IQ standpoint).  Conversely, if you only need to crop a few of your images, the IQ with the FF will be a decided advantage.  That might mean getting longer lenses to compensate for the loss of 1.3x crop...which suits Canon just fine...

Neuro - this was well stated -so true.

Like some of you, that Spot AF is a necessity for me as well.  The 7D spoiled me on this and it's availability with all lenses.  It's a must have. Does anyone have a tally as to which currently available Canon DSLR bodies have this feature on FF for all lenses?

[Viggo]

Put another way, if you buy a FF camera but then have to crop all your images to 1.3x or 1.6x FoV, you're throwing away the IQ advantages of FF over the smaller sensors, and so you might as well just get the cheaper camera (from an IQ standpoint).  Conversely, if you only need to crop a few of your images, the IQ with the FF will be a decided advantage.  That might mean getting longer lenses to compensate for the loss of 1.3x crop...which suits Canon just fine...

Neuro - this was well stated -so true.

Like some of you, that Spot AF is a necessity for me as well.  The 7D spoiled me on this and it's availability with all lenses.  It's a must have. Does anyone have a tally as to which currently available Canon DSLR bodies have this feature on FF for all lenses?

Yes, the 1d X.

[briansquibb]

but i missed the ZONE and 4 point expansion options.

They are there on the 1D4 - I use expansion by default.

1D4 has:

- left/right expansion
- one point all round(9points)
- 18 point expansion

The 1D4 has a whole bunch of options around the AF and the AF points mostly (from memory) the same as the 7D plus a few extras.

No zone-af or spot-af on the mk4... The X will get the same layout , Q-button, as the 7d..

I think perhaps an explaination is needed on the 1D4 AF

- the 1d4 has 45 AF points of which 39 are cross type at f2.8 or higher with the vertical line twice as sensitive as the horizontal
- for f/4 lens 44 points are horizontal ine sensitive with the centre point being cross type EXCEPT:

for these f/4 lens all 39 are cross types:
      EF17-40mm f/4L USM,
      EF24-105mm f/4L IS USM,
      EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM + Extender EF1.4X II,
      EF200mm f/2L IS USM + Extender EF2X II,
      EF300mm f/2.8L IS USM + Extender EF1.4X II,
      EF400mm f/2.8L IS USM + Extender EF1.4X II

- AF expansion - 3 options here

 * left/right - 2 points, used typically for panning
* surrounding - 7 points. (7D only uses 5 in the centre, 4 at the edges)
* 6 above and below and three each side of the selected, 19 points (equivalent in the 7D zoning which uses just 9 points in the centre or 5 points top,bottom,left and right ) The 1D4 version of zoning is far better off centre

The greater number of AF points in the 1d4(45) means that they are significantly closer than the 7D(19) points

I would suggest then that the 1D4 AF is better than the 7D as you might expect
   

[neuroanatomist]

- AF expansion - 3 options here

* left/right - 2 points, used typically for panning
* surrounding - 7 points. (7D only uses 5 in the centre, 4 at the edges)
* 6 above and below and three each side of the selected, 19 points (equivalent in the 7D zoning which uses just 9 points in the centre or 5 points top,bottom,left and right ) The 1D4 version of zoning is far better off centre

Just to clarify your clarification    that's not how Zone AF works.  Expansion (whether 2 points, 7 points, or 19/45 points) means it uses your manally selected single point, and the additional expansion points are used only if the subject moves away from the manually selected point, or if the manually selected point cannot achieve a focus lock.

Zone AF is similar to fully automatic AF point selection, in that the camera will select the AF point on the closest subject, but Zone AF restricts that automatic selection to a specific region of the field of view.

The 1D X will have Zone AF like the 7D, and also two expansion options (4 points in a 'plus' shape or all 8 surrounding points). 

[briansquibb]

- AF expansion - 3 options here

* left/right - 2 points, used typically for panning
* surrounding - 7 points. (7D only uses 5 in the centre, 4 at the edges)
* 6 above and below and three each side of the selected, 19 points (equivalent in the 7D zoning which uses just 9 points in the centre or 5 points top,bottom,left and right ) The 1D4 version of zoning is far better off centre

Just to clarify your clarification    that's not how Zone AF works.  Expansion (whether 2 points, 7 points, or 19/45 points) means it uses your manally selected single point, and the additional expansion points are used only if the subject moves away from the manually selected point, or if the manually selected point cannot achieve a focus lock.

Zone AF is similar to fully automatic AF point selection, in that the camera will select the AF point on the closest subject, but Zone AF restricts that automatic selection to a specific region of the field of view.

The 1D X will have Zone AF like the 7D, and also two expansion options (4 points in a 'plus' shape or all 8 surrounding points).

Yes - I should have made that clearer. Now that the 7Ds have gone the detail about the finer points have been replaced by the 1D4 finer points

It would be interesting to know how people use the various AF options. I would be interested to know if the AF point on the 1D4 are the same size as the 7D or whether, as I suspect, they are smaller.

I use the surrounding points expansion by default, but switch to 19point expansion for fast moving subjects