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Author Topic: Etiquette of Street Photography  (Read 13932 times)

scrappydog

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2012, 03:37:29 PM »
The problem with the M9 is: cost, poor high ISO performance, and lack of lenses :-).
Yeah, the price is the kicker.  Manual focus is a problem for some, although I am old school and I manual focus a lot, so it does not bug me.  The guy who let me fiddle with his M9 commented that he thought the shots that he took with it came out sharper than equivalent shots with his 5D2.  For him, the smaller lenses for the Leica appealed to him because of their size.  I got the sense that his 30 years of shooting Canons (with big glass) took their toll on him.  :o

@briansquibb: love the shots.

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2012, 03:37:29 PM »

AprilForever

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2012, 04:11:28 PM »
Not my best - but taken with 1d4+400 f/2.8 just to show a Leica isn't needed

Love it! Three cheers for iconoclasm!!!
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ghosh9691

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2012, 04:14:13 PM »
Not my best - but taken with 1d4+400 f/2.8 just to show a Leica isn't needed

That is not the point. Street photography can be done with any camera - some are just more suited to it than others. A DSLR is much more noticeable and much more intimidating, particularly in close quarters.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2012, 04:22:15 PM »
A DSLR is much more noticeable and much more intimidating, particularly in close quarters.

Sure it is...but Brian with his 400/2.8 were well outside of intimidation range, which is the point of the 400mm lens...I'm guessing about 150' (~50 m).
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Ryusui

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2012, 05:00:51 PM »
If you think that buying a Leica will turn you into a great street photographer, you are wrong.
I don't think anyone here is insinuating that having a Leica will make you better, just that it can be easier and more discreet than an SLR.  It's more discreet and doesn't require you to carry around large glass so you can be "outside of intimidation range".

Personally, I really like shooting on the street with my 5DII and 70-200.  But I'd love to find me an itty-bitty I can use with decent IQ and ISO performance for those days when I just want to blend in a little more.  Just like ghosh9691, I love my D-Lux 5 as a discreet-use camera.  But take it out at night and you're screwed.

distant.star

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 05:01:00 PM »
I think this is a good post about the sensitivity of the whole "street photography" issue.

One reason I've always been the one taking the pictures in my world is sort of self-defense. Like Orang, I don't like having my picture taken, never have. However, it's part of the world, so if it happens, so be it.

As for being offended, a big part of life is being offended. Most of what I see in this world offends me. The idea that people think they should live life without being offended deeply offends me. What offends us is a primary part of what we are. We either accept, reject or change. Since change is so difficult and challenging, most people never go there. Unless we're outraged, we generally tend to accept -- the meek will inherit the earth, I guess. Famous philosophers have depicted hell as a place of total boredom where offense does not take place.

The mention of people who are "shy" definitely touched a nerve with me. If you pay attention, you really can tell when someone doesn't want their picture taken. I tend to not take their picture. I once saw a man at a county fair who seemed deeply afraid I might take his picture. To reassure him, I told him I knew he didn't want his picture taken and I wouldn't. As I've said before, I'm not out there trying to make people feel uncomfortable.

Suggesting that street photography may be unethical is beyond the pale. And the comparison to audio recording is simply inaccurate. Here's why I believe this. What I believe is the best street photography/candid portraiture captures humans at what I call an "interior moment." They have briefly abandoned their public mask and have gone somewhere inside. You can see that in the eyes, the face, sometimes the body language. That's a rare event, and it's why I have so few pictures I really love. It's sort of the holy grail for me. In contrast to an audio recording, this portrayal of the person does not intrude on what he's thinking or where his mind might be -- only that his public self is temporarily suspended. An audio recording, on the other hand, is going right to the mind. That's the basis of why police can prohibit video recording (with sound) in the U.S. on the basis of wire-tapping laws. Recording someone's thoughts is a far sight from recording their vacant stare.

Orang asked what makes photography different -- that's what.

As for arrogance in assuming other people will tacitly be your model, I agree. That's why street photography is so hard for most of us. I am not arrogant, and I don't think most of us are. But you have to act aggressively sometimes if you think it will produce art of value. Art itself requires arrogance. I think it's arrogant to publicly display my pictures -- who am I to think anyone would want to see my work? Yet, we do it, and I'm sure there are a variety of reasons behind that. The OP talked about the adrenalin, heart-pounding rush of taking a street picture. That's the arrogance of it. But he believed the image would be worth it. He saw something in another human that he believed was worth sharing with other human beings.

Visual art can be a form of storytelling. Our human brains make sense of the world through story. And people are the heart of stories we value most.

Probably more than anyone wanted to read -- but I do have an abiding interest in this topic.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Orang.




I'm one of those people who hate to be photographed, and I do take offense when someone takes my picture, ironically, even though I also love to *take* candid photos of people.   (which is one of the reasons I've enjoyed wedding photography)   As a result, I don't do much street photography.

It's hard.  When I do choose to engage in street photography, I make myself very visible; anyone who shows signs of shyness -- I avoid them.  Do I miss a lot of shots?  Yep, but then nobody owed me those shots to begin with.

True, it may be legal in the US, but legal does not imply ethical.  There is a certain arrogance in assuming that others are (tacitly) willing to be your models.  I'm sure I'll get some smites for that, but it's true.  Imagine if, instead of a camera, you had a parabolic microphone and liked to record conversations at a distance.  Even if you  deleted those that were "too private" many people would feel intruded-upon by such an act.  What makes photography different?

On the other hand, anyone who engages in willful attention-seeking behavior (street performers, skateboarders, etc) is fair game.  "Crowd shots," where individuals are not readily distinguishable, are also fair game.
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Orangutan

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 05:49:04 PM »
If I have a great street photography, it is okay to sell to someone, or to charge people for seeing it in a gallery.


Legal: likely.  "OK" is a different story.  Please see my previous post.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2902.msg60957.html

Legal does not necessarily imply ethical.  It is not ethical to assume everyone is happy to be your model.

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 05:49:04 PM »

Minnesota Nice

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 05:50:39 PM »
First solution:

Use the 800mm and get real posty somewhere.  Maybe a block or two away  ;D

Second solution:

Be casual about it, don't make too big a deal about taking pictures, and if worse comes to worse and someone gets upset just be as polite as possible to avoid making it any worse!

Orangutan

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2012, 05:59:21 PM »
Didn't read this until I'd responded to a previous post.  I appreciate the thought that went into your post, and I can tell you understand what I'm saying, but I still disagree.  I might have more to say when I'm not at work. In the mean time, it's a worthwhile conversation: even for those who disagree with me, I hope they'll understand that not everyone sees this the same way as ardent street photographers do.

I think this is a good post about the sensitivity of the whole "street photography" issue.

One reason I've always been the one taking the pictures in my world is sort of self-defense. Like Orang, I don't like having my picture taken, never have. However, it's part of the world, so if it happens, so be it.

As for being offended, a big part of life is being offended. Most of what I see in this world offends me. The idea that people think they should live life without being offended deeply offends me. What offends us is a primary part of what we are. We either accept, reject or change. Since change is so difficult and challenging, most people never go there. Unless we're outraged, we generally tend to accept -- the meek will inherit the earth, I guess. Famous philosophers have depicted hell as a place of total boredom where offense does not take place.

The mention of people who are "shy" definitely touched a nerve with me. If you pay attention, you really can tell when someone doesn't want their picture taken. I tend to not take their picture. I once saw a man at a county fair who seemed deeply afraid I might take his picture. To reassure him, I told him I knew he didn't want his picture taken and I wouldn't. As I've said before, I'm not out there trying to make people feel uncomfortable.

Suggesting that street photography may be unethical is beyond the pale. And the comparison to audio recording is simply inaccurate. Here's why I believe this. What I believe is the best street photography/candid portraiture captures humans at what I call an "interior moment." They have briefly abandoned their public mask and have gone somewhere inside. You can see that in the eyes, the face, sometimes the body language. That's a rare event, and it's why I have so few pictures I really love. It's sort of the holy grail for me. In contrast to an audio recording, this portrayal of the person does not intrude on what he's thinking or where his mind might be -- only that his public self is temporarily suspended. An audio recording, on the other hand, is going right to the mind. That's the basis of why police can prohibit video recording (with sound) in the U.S. on the basis of wire-tapping laws. Recording someone's thoughts is a far sight from recording their vacant stare.

Orang asked what makes photography different -- that's what.

As for arrogance in assuming other people will tacitly be your model, I agree. That's why street photography is so hard for most of us. I am not arrogant, and I don't think most of us are. But you have to act aggressively sometimes if you think it will produce art of value. Art itself requires arrogance. I think it's arrogant to publicly display my pictures -- who am I to think anyone would want to see my work? Yet, we do it, and I'm sure there are a variety of reasons behind that. The OP talked about the adrenalin, heart-pounding rush of taking a street picture. That's the arrogance of it. But he believed the image would be worth it. He saw something in another human that he believed was worth sharing with other human beings.

Visual art can be a form of storytelling. Our human brains make sense of the world through story. And people are the heart of stories we value most.

Probably more than anyone wanted to read -- but I do have an abiding interest in this topic.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Orang.



distant.star

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2012, 06:55:25 PM »

I agree.

While I accept that everyone has their own way of doing "street photography," for me a 400mm lens feels more like voyeurism than street photography. I couldn't do it.





Not my best - but taken with 1d4+400 f/2.8 just to show a Leica isn't needed

Love it! Three cheers for iconoclasm!!!

The real iconoclasm is actually using 400mm for street photography :P
Leave the fish alone -- they aren't hurting you!

spaced

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 07:04:41 PM »
I like this conversation - and I'm surprised with the direction it has taken.

I actually see both sides of the argument that distant.star and Orangutan present.

I personally would tend believe that the intention behind the photograph is just as important as the photograph itself, hence there is a part to be played by street photography, especially if there is a message behind the photograph.

For example, when you watch the video posted earlier on Bruce Gilden, although his photographs are striking his attitude comes across as somewhat rude and overbearing.  Jumping in people's faces and taking photographs is a little over the top.  Although his pictures are cool, I'm not sure how much real value there is in this.

On the other hand, I came across another street photographer called John Free - and he presents himself in an entirely different way all together.  He speaks from the heart, and you can just tell he has a passion for the message he's trying to convey, rather than just getting a shot that looks cool.

If you're interested, it's well worth watching this video where he gives a brief intro to himself, and then talks through some of the photos he's taken over the years:

Small | Large


(There is the occassional noise of trains passing by which can make it a little hard to hear what he's saying sometimes, but I believe what he's saying has a lot of value, so it's worth sticking to it and listening).

scrappydog

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 08:33:35 PM »

I don't think anyone here is insinuating that having a Leica will make you better, just that it can be easier and more discreet than an SLR. 
Agreed.  A smaller camera permits you to not stand out.  Not to divert the conversation, but has anyone tried a NEX 5n for street photography?

Minnesota Nice

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 08:52:08 PM »

I don't think anyone here is insinuating that having a Leica will make you better, just that it can be easier and more discreet than an SLR. 
Agreed.  A smaller camera permits you to not stand out.  Not to divert the conversation, but has anyone tried a NEX 5n for street photography?

Having a Leica might throw off the "Creepy photographer" vibe a bit as well, seeing as it's not a gigantic camera.

distant.star

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 09:03:23 PM »
Thanks, spaced. That's a great video with John Free, and I'm wholly in his camp. As an aside, I'm a little surprised he doesn't articulate the real power and story of the first image he shows. The vulnerability of the child literally surrounded by the protecting strength of the man/father. That's exactly what I mean by this kind of photography telling stories we relate to.

I also agree that I don't care for Gilden, and I don't see a lot of worth in his "product." They mostly look like startled or surprised people. He injects himself into the scene (which is one way of legit street photography), but all his subjects are merely showing a different reaction to him. So, as his attitude would suggest, it's really all about him. I don't mean to condemn him, it's just not what I see as worthy in street photography.

"It's about love," is the one thing Free said that glued his video together. As I've said in past posts, I talk with people after photographing them. That tends to make the intimacy of the photographic act okay. Free seems to have spent a lot of time with the throwaway people of our world, as have I. And, of course, he talks with them. One thing I can assure you is these folks want someone to tell their story. They yearn to be heard. Generally, they live in a pragmatic world where other people are valued only for what they have or don't have. No one they interact with, either in the street or in bureaucracies, cares for them, and they know it. When they come across someone who just wants to tell their story in a photo, who values the person they really are...their hearts soften. Now that doesn't mean they might not ask you for money, but the caring enough to photograph them AND talk with them is what they really care about.

The higher up the socioeconomic ladder you go, the more resistance you will have to photos. A Wall Street banker will have a negative reaction to ANYONE taking a picture of him as he walks from his glass tower to his limo.

Anyway, as I keep saying, the image is the point. Had Free not taken that picture he starts his video with, one or two people may have seen that event in time -- and probably neither would have seen the power in it. But now, thousands of people have seen that image and recognized it -- and felt the bond between vulnerable children and their adult protectors, the visceral love of a father for a child -- those things are in that image, and I defy anyone to not feel it as they look. Free's image froze that moment. What I'm trying to do is freeze a few moments of time so people can look at what we're really about, hopefully at our best.

So, thanks again, spaced.


I like this conversation - and I'm surprised with the direction it has taken.

I actually see both sides of the argument that distant.star and Orangutan present.

I personally would tend believe that the intention behind the photograph is just as important as the photograph itself, hence there is a part to be played by street photography, especially if there is a message behind the photograph.

For example, when you watch the video posted earlier on Bruce Gilden, although his photographs are striking his attitude comes across as somewhat rude and overbearing.  Jumping in people's faces and taking photographs is a little over the top.  Although his pictures are cool, I'm not sure how much real value there is in this.

On the other hand, I came across another street photographer called John Free - and he presents himself in an entirely different way all together.  He speaks from the heart, and you can just tell he has a passion for the message he's trying to convey, rather than just getting a shot that looks cool.

If you're interested, it's well worth watching this video where he gives a brief intro to himself, and then talks through some of the photos he's taken over the years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if1V0RBj_qs

(There is the occassional noise of trains passing by which can make it a little hard to hear what he's saying sometimes, but I believe what he's saying has a lot of value, so it's worth sticking to it and listening).
Leave the fish alone -- they aren't hurting you!

AprilForever

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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 10:34:41 PM »
A DSLR is not the ideal camera for street photography. Can it be done? Sure! But it is just too big and bulky and does not allow a photographer to be discreet.


I'm an example of a person that switched from the T2i to the x100, but I don't think the camera changes things that much here. In fact, my best pictures were taken with the Rebel. There are people doing great street photography with Canon DSLRs. Check this guy out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirtyharrry/

If you think that buying a Leica will turn you into a great street photographer, you are wrong.


Indeed!
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Re: Etiquette of Street Photography
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 10:34:41 PM »