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Author Topic: Never delete images 'in camera'  (Read 9253 times)

KevinP

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2012, 04:48:25 PM »
As with everyone else here, I've never had any problem with deleting images in camera.  My problem is when I delete an image, or images, that I did not want to delete.  That happens more often than I'd like to admit.  It's easy enough to fix, just don't delete images in the camera.  Solve both "problems".

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2012, 04:48:25 PM »

Positron

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2012, 04:55:50 PM »
As for the processor - no way.

Solid state memory (such as CompactFlash) does have a limited number of writes per bit, but when you delete an image, it doesn't actually overwrite those bits, it simply deletes a pointer so that the data can no longer be accessed. It only overwrites that data when a new file is stored to the same physical location (which any competent solid state controller will only do after all other physical locations have been used, to keep the wear balanced), or when you low level format (all bits reset to 0). Even deleting everything from the card using an erase all images will only change pointers and be no different from clearing the card when it's attached to your computer.

More importantly, the lifespan of even the cheapest card is not a matter of concern right now, because by the time it dies from normal use, the card is likely to be obsolete due to increases in storage density. I've had a few cards die from use from way way back in my P&S days, and the largest one was 256MB.

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2012, 05:42:48 PM »
Okay, a related question.

I always assumed that it was best to format the card in-camera so that it is formatted to the camera's specs. I see some advising formatting on the computer. Kind of a moot point for me, frankly, since I don't even have a card reader, but, is there any difference?

Of course I'm talking formatting, not just deleting. I routinely format my card once I've uploaded the images and verified the files are okay.
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TexPhoto

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2012, 05:48:54 PM »
As the others have said, no you cannot hurt the processor.  But there is no real reason to delete and image.  It's actually not gone anyway, you could recover it.

For a long time I have dolled out the following advise in order to reduce the chance of corrupt file on a memory card:
1. Don't delete images in camera or on the computer.  Unless you are desperate need to make room. (but maybe buy a bigger card next time) Way bigger than you need is the size you want.
2. Transfer all the images to the computer, and then back them up, before you remove anything from the card.  At this point, feel free to prune away the good from the bad.
3. Format the card in camera, rather than delete anything.  That way the card is set up the way the camera wants, not the computer.

My system works for me and the people who I've given the advice too.  Before i did this, I'd have a corrupt file or whole card every few months.  Since then, 4 years, no problems, shooting 30K photo a year.  I think the problems I was having were related to going from camera to mac and sometimes PC.  Essentially giving 3 computers the chance to put their own peculiar files onto that little hard drive. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 05:50:54 PM by TexPhoto »

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2012, 06:20:39 PM »
Got a shocked telling off from a friend of mine when I deleted an image I'd taken on his brand new 7D.  He told me it was possible to damage the processor by deleting images from the memory card 'in camera'. ONLY delete the images off the card when the card is being read on a computer, he told me. Never heard THAT before, and can't quite believe it. Is this true? If so, why? - and surely Canon wouldn't provide a 'delete' button!
ROFL :D great first post! got a good laugh from that, me thinks your friend suffers from a more than a little case of paranoia. In fact deleting in camera is much safer than deleting from the card on a computer. I am not sure if it happens with canons but with Nikon I had a strange problem where my wifes cards were showing all full in camera but they were blank when plugged into a computer. I worked out the problem was she had been deleting the images from the computer not from the camera or formating the card in camera. I think the problem is that the files dont actually get deleted this way unless you empty the trash as well. So now we just stick with clearing files in camera.
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briansquibb

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2012, 06:29:31 PM »
He could buy a 128Gb card and shoot in jpeg. When it fill he could just replace it with another 128gb card and keep the first as a backup copy

 ;) ;) ;)

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 06:32:36 PM »

That's funny. Only need one card each year. Easy to buy for at Christmas!


He could buy a 128Gb card and shoot in jpeg. When it fill he could just replace it with another 128gb card and keep the first as a backup copy

 ;) ;) ;)
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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2012, 06:32:36 PM »

pwp

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2012, 07:05:33 PM »
Everyone has their own way of doing things. I can edit/sort/rank/delete files way faster back in the studio on a 30 inch monitor than making those assessments while out on a shoot. On a shoot I'm more interested in locking into the project rather than doing "on the fly" edits.

Memory cards have been so inexpensive for years now; I just take more than I figure I'll ever need, a couple of 32 Gb and a few older 16Gb cards.

My workflow moved to this "no deletes" approach  a few years ago when I did a couple of accidental deletes, regretted mistakes made while under pressure. Also, occasionally a blurry out-take may make the perfect background for one of your hero shots.

An important part of your post production workflow is to become a ruthless editor. With practice it's not hard to pull a 1000 file shoot down to the sweet top 20, depending of course on your project and client requirements, but you get my point.

Deleting in camera is totally valid and important if you are shooting news or sports for a wire service and use the opportunity for editing-down during lulls or shorts breaks. This can mean vitally quicker image delivery of your most relevant images.

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Positron

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2012, 07:21:03 PM »
Okay, a related question.

I always assumed that it was best to format the card in-camera so that it is formatted to the camera's specs. I see some advising formatting on the computer. Kind of a moot point for me, frankly, since I don't even have a card reader, but, is there any difference?

Of course I'm talking formatting, not just deleting. I routinely format my card once I've uploaded the images and verified the files are okay.

To be honest, I think all the popular card types use FAT32 as their filesystem now (I know there's been some push toward ext2 for microSD, but that's not really relevant to the question). I would recommend formatting in-camera only because certain cameras with certain firmware might only be designed to read/write one filesystem or another. I suspect on modern cameras that isn't much of an issue, but the point is that there is no way to format in camera and end up with a filesystem that the camera can't read, whereas it would be possible, formatting on the computer.

There's no actual way to "damage" the card by formatting it (other than normal wear from write cycles), but it's just guaranteed to work if you do it in the camera versus on the computer.

Finally, there's no need to reformat your card every time you dump images off it. Compared to just erasing all images, reformatting rebuilds the filesystem, which is unnecessary since a filesystem never "expires". The only times I'd bother reformatting is the first time you use a card, if you switch that card to primarily be used in another device, and of course if the camera is having trouble reading/writing the card. Otherwise you're just spending extra time and putting extra wear on the card for no real benefit.

Edit: As regards "the camera's specs", all major filesystems are standard, so the camera can't somehow "do something different" as regards the filesystem. The only reason that would ever happen is if the camera's manufacturer wanted to make it proprietary to force you to buy their cards (which would no longer actually be CF, SD, etc., even if they were the same shape), which none of the big manufacturers do.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 07:24:07 PM by Positron »

distant.star

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2012, 08:27:59 PM »

My workflow moved to this "no deletes" approach  a few years ago when I did a couple of accidental deletes, regretted mistakes made while under pressure. Also, occasionally a blurry out-take may make the perfect background for one of your hero shots.

Exactly! I thought that was one of my secrets!!

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willrobb

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 08:32:56 PM »
Ha ha, maybe someone was tasking the mickey out of your friend and they took it as fact. The only problems I've ever known to happen by deleting in camera is when a friend accidently hit "erase all" after a day out taking pics....OUCH!

Drizzt321

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 09:30:13 PM »
To be honest, I think all the popular card types use FAT32 as their filesystem now (I know there's been some push toward ext2 for microSD, but that's not really relevant to the question)

Actually, it's exFAT I believe, which is an Microsoft filesystem, designed for removable flash memory based drives for higher capacities and larger file sizes (e.g. >4GB video files). ext2 is a Linux filesystem, which is actually quite old. ext3 and now ext4 exist, which basically just extend ext2 and, generally, provide a degree of backwards compatibility with ext2.

Also, it's not the cards that use FAT32, it's the camera's that use FAT32. If the camera's start supporting exFAT, then I could use that instead (provided my computer can read exFAT, which all >=Win Vista can, not sure about OS X) and be fine.
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PeterJ

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 01:05:27 AM »
I always assumed that it was best to format the card in-camera so that it is formatted to the camera's specs. I see some advising formatting on the computer. Kind of a moot point for me, frankly, since I don't even have a card reader, but, is there any difference?
I agree with this approach. While in the ideal world it wouldn't make any difference there are a lot of optional fields in FAT32 and some latitude to where things are stored on the card within the spec. One day Microsoft or Apple might decide to move something around in a perfectly valid way within the spec that Canon doesn't handle properly 100% of the time. I also think a format is better than a delete, once again this shouldn't happen but for example:

There's a part in FAT32 that hints where the next free cluster is likely to be, if you've been deleting as you go that may very well be right at the end of the card. The firmware should wrap back and start looking at the beginning. But does it work, has it ever been tested, maybe the code errantly wraps back to sector 0 and wipes out the volume information, who knows? Those are the sort of bugs that happen so rarely they can go undetected a long time.

I always think there's a lot to be said for starting from a known point each time which puts everything on the best tested code path. Having said that it's all unlikely to cause problems and no doubt some would do it for years without ever having a problem.

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 01:05:27 AM »

NotABunny

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 03:25:04 AM »
This problem may occur not only when images are deleted, but when images are written as well (there is no difference, you know).

I've heard that once the camera writes the image numbered 25673, the memory corruption gets so bad that from that moment on all the photographed people are recorded naked!!! :o

Also note that this is 2012, so at some point the memory corruption might get so bad that the world will really end (for that memory card, I mean). The best advice that I've heard is to not shoot with a memory card in the camera.

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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 04:00:47 AM »
Got a shocked telling off from a friend of mine when I deleted an image I'd taken on his brand new 7D.  He told me it was possible to damage the processor by deleting images from the memory card 'in camera'. ONLY delete the images off the card when the card is being read on a computer, he told me. Never heard THAT before, and can't quite believe it. Is this true? If so, why? - and surely Canon wouldn't provide a 'delete' button!

Don't ever take advice from this person.
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Re: Never delete images 'in camera'
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 04:00:47 AM »