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Author Topic: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?  (Read 12146 times)

Viggo

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 02:54:41 PM »
2,8 lenses are usually more accurate to AF over the entire frame, whilst 5,6 lenses misses out on cross- and dual cross type af-sensors.

And a point, for me at least, is that there's no problem in getting conditions too dark for a 2,8 lens even with 4 times the iso of the 1d X. And a 5,6 lens in those dim conditions doesn't work, af or shutterspeed-wise
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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 02:54:41 PM »

pharp

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 04:00:16 PM »
Should think It would have more affect on the need for fast wide angle primes!  Really any need for a 24mm 1.4 anymore?

tt

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 04:03:12 PM »
Is focus speed another factor?
The subjective speed of a 1DX focusing an f4 lens seems quicker. Yes, it's got the extra help, but then won't these ultra high ISO bodies also be bringing in some level of improved focusing speed?
Eg - Will the mythical 5D Mark III / 7D Mark II likely have a faster focus speed to their predecessors, using the same lenses?

Viggo

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2012, 05:38:20 PM »
Should think It would have more affect on the need for fast wide angle primes!  Really any need for a 24mm 1.4 anymore?

Have you ever used a 24 f1,4 L II on a fullframe body?? The look of the picture you get at that wide angle and that shallow depth can't be done by anything else.
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JonJT

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2012, 05:40:20 PM »
Should think It would have more affect on the need for fast wide angle primes!  Really any need for a 24mm 1.4 anymore?

Have you ever used a 24 f1,4 L II on a fullframe body?? The look of the picture you get at that wide angle and that shallow depth can't be done by anything else.

Indeed.  And, even if you discount the ISO bump needed at the widest apertures, the 24mm 1.4 still has an advantage over a 2.8 zoom for low light, no flash shooting.  Sometimes, it will mean the difference between getting the shot and not getting it.

drummstikk

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2012, 08:47:47 PM »

In my 5DM2, I get a 3800x2500 pixel RAW file, which is just fine for up to 20x30 poster-size prints. How many people need to print larger than that?  What I gain is far less noise at 5000 ISO, (plus my CF cards & disk storage go twice as far!


Respectfully disagree on two points:

1) 20x30" print from 3800x2500px image is only about 125 dpi. That's OK for viewing at more than arm's length, but not good enough for close examination, in my opinion. I rethink the size I want to print if dpi dips below about 200. 300dpi is considered ideal for print publishing. A book publisher I worked for a few years back started with 400 dpi with final output downsampled to 300. (I never understood exactly why that was, but the results in cookbooks were undeniably superb.)

2) Especially in demanding light conditions, you want the most information your camera can possibly gather for you. Use the full size Raw capture. Resist cheating the shutter speed upward and give the image all the exposure you possibly can while still adequately overcoming subject action and camera shake. This way, more detail and less noise will be recorded in the shadows. If the light is especially challenging and demands slow shutter speeds, don't be afraid to shoot 30 frames and end up with 25 of them showing motion blur. Most times you only need one image to be sharp, but do what it takes to ensure you get that one. (At a candlelight choral performance I shot last month, I shot over 500 images to have 43 images suitable for delivery to the client.)

The jury is out in my mind whether setting accurate white balance in camera helps with noise levels, but it does speed up post production. And while in post-prodution, use "just enough" sharpening and noise reduction and then output your final image at a lower resolution. For instance, I sometimes output my Canon 7D images at 11.7MP from ACR to reduce apparent noise.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 09:07:55 PM »
The 1D MK IV has a 102400 top ISO, that does not mean its usable.  Bumping it by 1 stop isn't going to have a huge effect on lenses.  We need to really see what the usable ISO actually is.

When I got my 5D MK II 3+ years ago, using it at ISO 3200 was really pushing it, and I had to use quite a bit of NR.  When Lightroom 3 came out, the images looked much better at 3200, and might even be usable at 1/2 stop more.  Now with the LR4 beta, ISO 6400 images look remarkably clean even with no NR.

The ever improving software is doing much more for high ISO than the hardware, so I don't expect more than 1/2 to 1 stop better than my 5D MK II.  If it actually turns out that the laws of physics have been repealed, and the raw image is 2 stops better, I would be able to use the higher shutter speeds that I want with my primes wide open.

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2012, 09:07:55 PM »

GoldenEagle

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2012, 09:29:23 PM »
I'm not expecting any f/2.8 shooters to sell lenses and downgrade.

I am expecting that in the next 12-18 months, newer shooters may choose less expensive/less heavy F/4.0L-f/5.6L telephoto lenses to start their entry into sports/outdoor photography. If/when they advance, then they can decide if the marginal cost v marginal benefit of f/2.8 lenses (sharper, better bokeh, focus, etc).

We should also see more people entering sports/outdoor shooting in the future, since the cost of achieving 400mm focal lengths at acceptable shutter speeds will be dropping significantly.

Act444

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2012, 09:37:13 PM »
Don't forget that on the 7D a f/2.8 lens has DOF f/4.5 effectively, and the 300mm f/4 becomes a 480mm with DOF f/6.4.
This is not necessarily bad, I actually love this feature on 1.6x crop bodies.


Hmm...wouldn't that be offset (at least somewhat), however, by the extra focal length you gain on a crop sensor? Just curious.

Hillsilly

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 12:37:42 AM »
I'm an avid follower of some of the larger wildlife photo competitions - eg Veolia Wildlife Photographer of the Year.  When I first started paying attention, most people were shooting at very low ISO's such as 100. A lot of winning photos were being shot on Velvia 50.  But in the last couple of years, its not uncommon to see ISO's in the 400 to 800 range. 

Given that many entrants would have the equipment to shoot great photos at much higher ISOs, this raises two questions. 

Firstly, why do people that do well in these competitions choose to shoot at lower ISOs?  (Especially when a faster ISO will allow a faster shutter speed)?

Secondly, why do the judges seem to favour photos shot at lower ISOs?

I would suspect that despite improvements in sensors and software, there is still a noticeable quality improvement by using lower ISOs.  Lenses with a wide aperture (f/2.8 or faster) which make it easier to use low ISOs will still have a market for some time. 
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Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2012, 01:42:57 AM »
Firstly, why do people that do well in these competitions choose to shoot at lower ISOs?  (Especially when a faster ISO will allow a faster shutter speed)?

Secondly, why do the judges seem to favour photos shot at lower ISOs?

I would suspect that despite improvements in sensors and software, there is still a noticeable quality improvement by using lower ISOs.  Lenses with a wide aperture (f/2.8 or faster) which make it easier to use low ISOs will still have a market for some time.

I think there are two ways to look at this issue, assuming all photos are taken with DSLRs.

The first is whether today's digital sensors's perform as well at ISO 400 (or 800 or 100) as well as 100 ASA film or Velvia 50. I don't presume to know this one.

The other is whether the judges can tell the difference between a photos taken with today's DSLRs at ISO 400 or 800 and photos taken with today's DSLRs at lower ISO values. I wouldn't be surprised if they can, which would explain their preferences, regardless of the comparison to low ASA films.

briansquibb

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2012, 03:01:38 AM »
THe goo thing about f 2.8 and better is that it focuses better in low light. A 7D with a 2.8 lens will focus better than a 5D  (which has better high ISO value) will with a 5.6 lens.

... but it wont focus better than the new technology ff sensors

NotABunny

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2012, 04:11:32 AM »
Re: Megapixel count as a factor in high-ISO/useable noise images, I would encourage low-light shooters to try out the sRAW1 setting. In my 5DM2, I get a 3800x2500 pixel RAW file, which is just fine for up to 20x30 poster-size prints. What I gain is far less noise at 5000 ISO, (plus my CF cards & disk storage go twice as far!

So I'm a fan of smaller files and less noise captured to begin with. Then let me use post-processing to reduce even that noise even further.

You aren't capturing less noise.  If you capture a full size RAW file, then downsample it to 3861x2574 pixels, you'll achieve the same level of (apparent) noise reduction.

With the added benefit that the RAW converter may be able to deliver a sharper image (due to the extra detail available in RAW).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 04:21:22 AM by NotABunny »

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2012, 04:11:32 AM »

pharp

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2012, 08:12:59 AM »
Should think It would have more affect on the need for fast wide angle primes!  Really any need for a 24mm 1.4 anymore?

Have you ever used a 24 f1,4 L II on a fullframe body?? The look of the picture you get at that wide angle and that shallow depth can't be done by anything else.

Nope, never have, but I would certainly love to see an example of a real world shot using the 24 1.4 wide open [out of 100 shots - how many @ 1.4?] compared to ones shot at f2 or even 2.8 - real difference? care to share?  Anyway, I didn't really mean to suggest that nobody would want the faster wide angle lens, but they are pricey, big and the DOF advantages aren't as obvious [compared to telephotos].  I'm simply surmising that many [most?] folks will find less need for them as high ISO performance improves.  If Canon made a nice 24mm f2 L - I'd be all over it!

I'll go out on a limb and predict that across the board - high ISO cameras will increasingly cannabalize [not eliminate] the sales of fast [zoom and prime] lenses for ALOT of shooters - how could it not? Size and price really do matter!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:14:50 AM by pharp »

JonJT

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2012, 11:41:32 AM »
Should think It would have more affect on the need for fast wide angle primes!  Really any need for a 24mm 1.4 anymore?

Have you ever used a 24 f1,4 L II on a fullframe body?? The look of the picture you get at that wide angle and that shallow depth can't be done by anything else.

Nope, never have, but I would certainly love to see an example of a real world shot using the 24 1.4 wide open [out of 100 shots - how many @ 1.4?] compared to ones shot at f2 or even 2.8 - real difference? care to share?  Anyway, I didn't really mean to suggest that nobody would want the faster wide angle lens, but they are pricey, big and the DOF advantages aren't as obvious [compared to telephotos].  I'm simply surmising that many [most?] folks will find less need for them as high ISO performance improves.  If Canon made a nice 24mm f2 L - I'd be all over it!

I'll go out on a limb and predict that across the board - high ISO cameras will increasingly cannabalize [not eliminate] the sales of fast [zoom and prime] lenses for ALOT of shooters - how could it not? Size and price really do matter!

Doubtful.  People who would accept high ISO performance as an "alternate" to a fast lens probably were not interested in having a large, fast lens in the first place.  They are not really equivalent things because, high ISO has different and distinct effects upon the final image than a wide aperture. 

Let me also add that the fastest lenses also tend to offer other features that prosumer and professional shooters care about almost exclusively.  Things like weather sealing, build quality, focus speed, etc are things that are important for those who are really serious but, not so important for someone who might just want to take nice pictures.

Finally, the only time when high ISO performance and a wide aperture are interchange is during low light shooting, and only when you can tolerate a deep DOF and slower focusing speeds.  That's quite particular and, generally speaking, is only encountered when shooting a static subject.  There are plenty of more times with a fast lens cannot be supplanted by high ISO, in terms of composition and in terms of focusing speed and accuracy.


But, you are certainly correct that lens and camera size and weight are important.  But, then again, I think the mirrorless interchangeable cameras with M43 and smaller sensors do a far better job of reducing lens size and weight than high ISO performance does.  I don't see any serious future changes to sales patterns of fast, heavy lenses just because new sensors are better in lower light.

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Re: How will new ultra high ISO bodies impact f/2.8 telephoto zoom lenses?
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2012, 11:41:32 AM »